Magic Memory Madness with Max Davidson

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Can I. Can I quiz you? [00:00:01] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [00:00:01] Speaker A: All right. Super Bowl 5. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Super Bowl 5 is the Baltimore Colts, though, beating the Cowboys 16 to 13. [00:00:10] Speaker A: Super Bowl 25. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Super Bowl 25 is going to be. This was the start of the Bills losing streak. So this is the Giants beating the bills 20 to 19. Otis Anderson, MVP of that one, too. [00:00:24] Speaker A: This is insane. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Magicians Workshop, where we go behind the curtain with working magicians and creators. I'm your host, Dr. Todd, and today's guest is someone who has taken magic from the clubs of New York all the way to Mount Everest. Max Davidson is a magician, comedian, and creative force. He's the founder and producer of Stand Up Magic, New York's only monthly magic and comedy show now running in both NYC and Denver. He is a sharp performer, deep thinker, and he's got some truly wild stories, including what it's like to do a card trick with the Himalayas in the background. But before we jump in, make sure to hit subscribe so you never miss inspiring conversations like this one. Let's get into it. Max, thank you and welcome to the show. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're going to start with the thing. We've got to start with where. I have to know how you started. Like, what was your first experience in magic? When did you realize this wasn't just a hobby? [00:01:32] Speaker B: Classic question. You can probably guess how it started, which was with my grandparents, as always. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Oh, I was going to say grandparents or uncle. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Grandparents or uncle, Exactly. Yeah. Two primary experiences with both sets. The first one was my grandma took me into a little store in Denver called the Wizard's Chest, which is like a costume toy store. They had a magic counter. A guy showed me Spongebob. And then probably the most consequential $8 of my grandmother's life. So that was when I was 6. And then when I was 10, my other set of grandparents got me magic lessons with a local magician named Charlie. And she mentored me for five years, I think, till I was around 15. Unbelievably helpful. We work on all these acts together and my shows, and Charlie was just unbelievable, unbelievably instrumental in my journey. And then around 14, 15, I went to Tannins Magic Camp, and I went there for about four years, which was just huge because I didn't realize it in the moment, but I was meeting all these people who would eventually move to New York or who moved to New York before me. Right. Different age gaps and has been awesome because I've gotten to connect with them so much, and just obviously, Tannins exposes you, I guess, if you don't know if you're listening. Tannins is, like, the only real magic camp in America, probably around the world, but I don't have the stats on it. And so you really get to interact. Some of the best magicians in the world. It's amazing. [00:02:50] Speaker A: I mean, if you think about it, like, I'm just thinking of. I talked to Damore the other day, and he was, you know, huge into. Into that you could look at. You know, when you look at Tannen's old pictures, you see him in the. You see him in the pictures, and you're like, oh, that's where. And just. It seems like everyone that you talk to that's been to Tannen's magic camp says it's just an absolute transformative experience. You can see the pictures you've got, like, David Williamson and Carissa Hendricks, and literally all the. The biggest right now are all there. It sounds amazing. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, tan is almost like a whole separate conversation. Being, like, Matt King was there this year, and it was almost not worth listing the people, like, you know, Mike Cavend and Tina Leonard. And Tina Leonard's doing her Mottman routine, and the Evisons are coming in. Derek Hughes. Like, it's just. You see the pictures of people from, like, camp 20 years ago, and you're like, oh, they're all successful now. Noah Levine and Michael Carbonaro. And then you have Matt Schick, who's on Carbonaro's team. I mean, it's like, you know, Adam is running Tannen's store and also the camp. It's just like, I felt so lucky to be there. It's one of those few things in life that he's, like, I think, ubiquitously loved. And I feel incredibly grateful to. To have gotten to go there and be a part of the community and come back kind of on staff for, like, two years. It's been. Yeah, it's amazing. [00:03:57] Speaker A: It sounds amazing. I wish I had known about it, you know, growing up, but I would have loved to have done that. [00:04:01] Speaker B: That's incredible. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Is there anyone else that you can point to that really helped you develop in your career through. Through high school and college and. And beyond? [00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'd say, like, 10 to 15 was. Was Charlie, and she was amazing and still does great magic shows in Denver and around Colorado. And then probably for the later teenage years, it was a lot of people from camp and then I was in college, you know, from 18 to 22, I was doing magic. I was probably doing six to 10 shows a year, so it was nothing crazy. So it's like I was still working on it and stuff, but I was also doing school. And then once I moved to New York, I think that was the next phase of really having people. And I'd say it's been less mentorship in New York and more just community and friends who are all kind of on the same playing field. I think we're all ahead and behind each other in different ways, which is really great. One of my really good friends, Jason Silverman, who could be a great guest for this podcast as well. He's so great at so many. [00:04:57] Speaker A: I was going to ask you about that. I've had my eye on him. [00:04:59] Speaker B: Oh, he's excellent. I can't say enough good things about him. And Jason was a perfect example of someone who was really, definitely ahead of me. When I got to New York, I'd seen him just on Instagram. I'm like, wow, this guy works a lot. And I'm pleased to say he's not one of those people who puts on an act. I'm like, you know, I talked to him genuinely almost daily now, and the guy works and it's awesome. So he was one of my earliest people I got in contact with. And I was like, can we just get lunch or whatever? We got lunch. And now we produce my show, Stand up, our show, Stand Up Magic together. He's a great friend. So Jason's been awesome. And then I got to reconnect with a bunch of people from Tannen's who then ended up moving to New York. A bunch of. There's a group of guys who all worked on Aussie Wins show Inner Circle, all just incredibly talented, close up magicians and stage frankly. But they were. A lot of them were mentored by Aussie and so kind of have that skill set and getting to be friends with them is amazing. There's a few too many to name. I don't want to forget any of them, but they definitely know who they are. [00:05:54] Speaker A: That's okay. Yeah. [00:05:58] Speaker B: And then because of producing Stand Up Magic, I've gotten to work with so many comedians, which is an amazing perspective to have. And so another really close friend is Test Trigellis, who's a great comedian and also like content producer on, on Instagram and Tick Tock and she's a true Jack of all trades. And so she does stand up magic with us as well. So having Me and her and Jason together has been fantastic. And then I've gotten to meet a lot of other people through, you know, doing a few gigs with Bill Herz and being influenced by those people and getting talked to them. David Gerard, if you know him, the name is familiar. He's an amazing corporate magician out in the Bay Area, but he performs globally. I've gotten to know him over the past probably year. He did our show. And the kind of, like, mentor or someone is definitely David Gerard, who's very far ahead of me. And it's such a great thing because I think he has phenomenal perspectives. One of the best corporate magicians working today also has a really great Instagram channel called Gerard Speaks, where he just talks really candidly and. And with a lot of insight into putting meaning into your shows and the life of just doing corporate shows around America. The stress that I might take on the body, how to. How to. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Wow. [00:07:02] Speaker B: It's really interesting. It's just really tandem and smart. [00:07:05] Speaker A: What was the name of that, that. That show? [00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah, so I can put it on Gerard Underscore Speaks. Okay. [00:07:13] Speaker A: And can I find that on any podcast site or is it on YouTube? [00:07:16] Speaker B: It's Instagram. It's just an Instagram I think I love. I think it's fantastic. So the short answer is. Yeah. Being in New York, surround makes. Being in New York surrounds me with the best people, and I'm very grateful for that because I've learned so much. [00:07:29] Speaker A: How is it different from the Denver scene? Other than just more? Probably more, yeah. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Just Denver doesn't have a huge scene. Like, there is a local magic club, Mile High Magician Society. I used to go that to that. It was awesome. But the reality is, like, you just objectively look at it, and there's more magic in New York than Denver, and I think it's higher quality. And I think that's just the reality of the situation, and that's why I'm happy I moved there. And it's like, it's not to say you can't do things in other places, but, like, just look at where industries exist. Like, I also do marathons and triathlons, and I have not met a single serious triathlete or heard of a single serious triathlete that lives in New York City. Right. They're in Boulder and they're in Flagstaff and they're in Oregon and places that they can do what they want to do. And I think New York is just the exact same. Obviously, there's la, Chicago, Other cities are building up. Right. Now with their magic scene, which is fantastic, but I think it's. New York is definitely one of the best places to be in the United States to do it. Just because you're around so many amazing people and you're competing with the best. So when we're producing our show, I'm competing against Broadway and I'm competing against the comedy seller, and I'm competing against speakeasy magic and anything else you could do in that city. Right. Michelin star restaurants. So I think it just forces you to raise your level in a way that another city might not. [00:08:43] Speaker A: I didn't go into acting and comedy and magic because I was scared of competition. And I just, you know, I had imposter syndrome. Like, I'm not good enough. And now I realize I'm like, oh, I could have done it for sure. But you went ahead and made magic, which is in one of the most competitive markets in America. So what, what made you want to produce and. And create stand up magic? [00:09:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's plenty to say on it. I think the short answer, like, I never actually intended to create it. What happened was about, I think a week into being in New York City, I didn't have many gigs and I found myself at my friend's comedy show. His name's Danny Braff. Great comedian. It was just at west side Comedy on the Upper west side of Manhattan. Found myself in a conversation with him and the booker of. Of the club after the show. And she gets talking and she's like, yeah, we're looking for some Sunday content. I'm like, I'll do a magic show for you. We just planned it as a one off and then it. I wouldn't say it took off, but we kind of kept going. And, you know, to your point about the competition, I moved to New York. And when I look at those past performances, I'm like, I don't think I was very good. And I hope that in two years I'll think about that for myself now. And so I was like, well, I'm not good enough to headline this show, but Rachel waxes. And so I emailed her and now speakeasy runs like six days a week, but at that point it didn't run on Sundays. And so she is awesome and happily agreed to headline it. And she crushed, as you would expect. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:10:11] Speaker B: And so that gave us enough momentum. The show was. It wasn't great. I mean, Rachel was great, but, like, it was good enough. Right. And so we got to the next show, the next show, next Show. Eventually, west side ended up not being the best venue for us. It just the room didn't work as well. So there's some logistics. And we found an awesome venue in Brooklyn called the Gutter with this very cool kind of hidden back room with a great brick wall background. We love it. [00:10:32] Speaker A: I love that. I actually did have a question. What is the size? What's the size of the venue? And is it like, what do you feel is like the optimum size for your first standup slash magic? [00:10:44] Speaker B: I think it's an excellent question because if anyone's thinking about producing a show, here's our greatest hack. The Gutter has folding chairs, which means we see how many tickets we sold and we put out about five less chairs. So what does that do? Yeah, it means that there's a high possibility that the people who are coming in, the show starts at 6:30. Excuse me, at 7. So the people who are coming in at say, 6:58. Right. We might have to say, oh, we gotta get more chairs. Right. That's on purpose. We just need the room to feel full. The beauty of folding chairs is there's multiple ways to do that. So we've had people like, again, this is not linear in any way. Right. We've had stand up magic, so I think the lowest was maybe 25. And we've also had 70. Right. When it's 70, you get packed and you get some standing room. When it's 25, though, what you can do is they also have these little folding tables and we can put these fake candles on them. And it just adds the aesthetic. Right. There's some string lights in the room, so you can take 25 seats and make it occupy almost the same amount of space as 70. And what that means is the room feels full. You can easily do magic for 25 people. Comedy is a little harder. You can definitely still do it, but magic can impact 25 people like that. And so when we have that many seats, that's what we do. And we have 70. That's what we do. I would say we average 40 to 50. Like, we've had some. The beginning of 2025 was phenomenal. We were having 60 to 70 every show. We've had summer seasons where we've just, you know, been brutal, which is pretty normal in shows. I'm still trying to fix that though. But yeah, it's at the average 40 to 50. And if you're producing a show and you have the ability to physically control the amount of seats, Great way to get started. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Wow, that's actually great. So how does it work? Is it like, do you split the time evenly between like, you'll have a comedian and. And the magic. Would it take me through like a show? [00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker A: And also I love the fact that it's early. I remember you talking about that on. On another podcast. [00:12:36] Speaker B: That's yes. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Also I'd like to know what that the thought process was on making it an earlier show. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, yeah, can answer all of those. So as far as the way the show is structured, we've changed it as time goes on as. As kind of you do we have our host, Tess. Tess is our permanent host. So most of the time, sometimes we change it. Most of the time she comes and opens the show with three to 10 minutes, just depending on who else we have on the lineup. Over time, she's learned some like little magic tricks and stuff like that. And sometimes she'll like do some throw streamers or something to really get the crowd involved. She's one of the most charismatic people I know, so she's very good at that. And then it'll usually go magician, comedian, just doing straight stand up. Sometimes we have a variety act. Marcus Monroe, for example, does the show a lot. He's amazing juggler and comedian. But we'll put that in the middle as kind of a palate cleanser. And then we have another magician closed. And then depending on the order, we'll have Tess come in and do another bit. Like there's. It's very modular, which is nice, but the structure is usually Tess, me, Jason and another comedian. And we also have the occasional magician doing other spot and things like that. As far as the early part of it, the show is on Sundays, so it's kind of just a necessity. We want people to come. It's from about 7 to 8:30. We could probably have it earlier, but. New Yorker coming up. You know, 7 to 8:30, you're home at 9, 9:30. Like very few people are going to bed before then anyway. So we think seven. I've always thought seven to 7:30, very clean start time. So we do that. [00:14:04] Speaker A: What. When you're. What advice would you give to like a magician who wants to be part of a comedy show like yours? Like, what would you like if somebody who's young and still like at Tannin's Magic Clap Camp, but that's the kind of thing they want to do. They want to get into to comedy slash magic. What would good jumping off point be for them? [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is, like, it's the. Or if you're doing comedy, it's stupidly competitive. If you're doing magic, it's much less competitive. But it's really tough to do a cold outreach. And we do get dms of like, I want to do the show. And it's like, well, if I don't know you or don't have references, it's tough to take a risk on that. So I think the best way to do it, and this is what I've done in the past, is to just not ask for things. So a lot of times if I've wanted to be on a show, I'll just go watch the show. I'll pay for a ticket, watch the show and just chat with the producers, maybe show them a trick, and then it becomes their idea. They're like, wait, you. We should have you on the show. Because I've just. Because I've just proved myself right. The cold outreach just doesn't feel good. And, like, if David Blaine emailed me, I was like, you know, of course. But, like, for the most part, if you are an unknown, and I still am and still was, right, Then it's hard to just get cold outreach. What happens, though, when you just. When you break in, however you end up breaking in? There's a show I do at this bar in, like, deep Brooklyn, right? And so. And it's like, free. So who's going to go to that show? It's going to be people who just want to see improv and music and musical comedy and magic and straight comedy, right? So when you do that one show, if it goes well, and you have to make sure that it goes well, then there's probably somebody else who books a show in that crowd, right? Who's gonna have you on. And so the keys, A, be a great magician. B, just be a great person. Go stay after the show and go to the person who is the musician and be like, that was fantastic. Can I follow you on Instagram? Yep, I'll follow you too. Staying after and chatting. No one's expecting magic. Whenever I do these variety shows, they're not mine. People, they're like, we have magic tonight. And people like, oh, my God, please don't see it. And so the more you can hang around, the more you can just do a trick afterwards, when you feel the time is right, obviously, and just do a great job, then you become genuinely to be a good human and. And people will book you for things in a kind of roundabout way that. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Is literally the Third time this week I've heard that. That is such good advice. Like, that's it. It seems like. And the pendulum is swinging towards. People are more interested in your personality than your tricks. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. I wouldn't say more interested. Maybe equally as interested. But, yes, like, it's. It's essential. And I think your tricks really, really do matter. Like, they really, really matter, but they're not going to matter if you're not nice to people. And so when you establish that trust, it, frankly, is easier to fool people. Like, it really is. They're like, I like you, and. And they're gonna go with things that you're saying. They're not going to immediately scrutinize everything. And it gives you more offbeats, right? It gives you more space to work when they like you and they're laughing and you do the method and the laughter. Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. [00:16:59] Speaker A: If you're digging this conversation with Max, make sure you like this video. Drop a comment, and, of course, subscribe to the channel. Every week, we bring you interviews with working magicians who are creating real careers and magics, just like Max. So let's get back to it. I love to talk to you about Mount Everest. Oh, yeah, that's just. That's such a neat line. They can say, you're the only magician I've known that's done magic at the a base camp of Mount Everest. How did that come about? [00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny because it is. It's. It's clickbait, but it is completely true. So there's that balance. I did not climb Everest. I want to make that very clear. It's an entirely different pursuit to do that. I was backpacking for four months after graduating college, which I highly recommend. If you're, like, a magician, I guarantee you you will perform magic every day if you backpack. And I did, too, because you stay in hostels, you meet people. What do you do for work? Magician, can you show me a trick? Right. That will happen essentially daily. So you're gonna get a lot of reps. Like, don't worry about putting your career on hold. You'll get to see amazing things. One of the great parts about backpacking is you can be very spontaneous about it. And I was like, I met some people in Thailand, and they were like, yeah, we just hiked base camp of Mount Everest. And later that day, I booked my own trip to base camp of Mount Everest, which is a hike. It's not a climb. It is a long hike. So being from Colorado, I knew I could do a hike at altitude, so I did. And I knew we'd end up at Everest Base Camp. And I was like, I would be foolish not to do a trick there. I don't think the trick was great. It was cold. There was, like, one random person to film. I think I made a card appear in my glove that I was wearing. So I think the trick was fine. Like, I don't look down and be like, that was the best trick I've ever done. But it did give me a fun line. And then about a year later, I hiked Mount Kilimanjaro with my dad. And that one you can summit. Um, it's about 10,000ft. About 10,000ft lower than the summit of Everest. So I was like, oh, I can do a trick on the summit. That one I was happy with. For the magicians don't understand this. I did a toxic on the calculator to get it to be the elevation of where we were. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Very cool. [00:19:05] Speaker B: And for that one, Everest, I was alone with a guide. But the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro was packed, and so we had our whole group, and I did it, and it was a bl. Like, our hands were freezing because it's. It's like, I don't know, 20 degrees up there. [00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:17] Speaker B: So that one I'm actually more proud of than Everest because I thought, like, this is a legitimate trick. Like, we're on the base. We're in the. We're on the top of Kilimanjaro. It's the. It's the elevation that we're at. Again, nothing profound at all, but it just gives me a little unique thing to my bio that I was at Everest in Kilimanjaro. So that. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker A: I do like your blog. And the blog is called Everything I don't know about and Everything I don't Know. And there's. I really liked this when you talked about the performance ratio. Ratio the 80. [00:19:48] Speaker B: 20. Can you. [00:19:49] Speaker A: Can you enlighten people a little bit about that? Because I actually thought that was a really good concept. [00:19:54] Speaker B: I read a book a few years ago called the Boys in the Boat, which is pretty famous book about the 1936 University of Washington men's rowing team who went to Berlin. 99. Sure it was Berlin won the gold medal in the Olympics as Hitler's, you know, taking over. And It's World War II is brewing. Really cool story. But one thing in that book caught my eye, and I'm Gonna forget the exact number of it, but someone estimated they rode 4300 miles to practice, right? And they rode in competition 28 miles. So it made their ratio of racing to practice minuscule, right? Less. Less than 1%. And to me, that was really interesting. And I've thought about this a lot. I read a lot about this of like, where does success come from, right? You don't just email the Tonight show and get on. But the lesson I've learned from so many other people is that it just slowly, slowly accumulates. And so my thought is like, the lower your performance ratio, right, the, the more preparation to actual work, kind of the better you're going to be. Now, I think with athletic performance, that's pretty accurate, right? Because it takes such a large toll on your body. With art, it's slightly different, but I think it still pretty much holds, right? Where like, you do have to have a lot of stage time objectively, so it's going to be higher. But to have that good stage time, you do need to have a lot of preparation, a lot of understanding of material so you can create good material. It's a 9 to 5 job to be a professional magician. And part of that job might be calling your friend and jamming, right? That might not feel like work, even though it technically is, or creating great graphics or even if you're not the one making the graphics, finding the really good person who is. And so my point being, you might work a five hour day before you have an hour on stage. So that's not going to be a less than 1% performance ratio. But you are going to have so much preparation that goes into it. And I think it's just a good reminder. Success is really slow and it accumulates over years and years and years and years. And the more that I've accepted that myself as a performer, it's like, it's fine. I'm not famous yet or haven't done Broadway, right? It's like I'm 25 years old and a lot of people are not going to hit their stride until they're 40 or 50 or 60. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Amen, brother. I'm still working on it. I'm 42 and I'm like, man, I can't wait till I hit my stride. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Actually, I will say that it's. Have you ever heard of the 10,000 hour rule? [00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, of course. [00:22:18] Speaker A: So I did the math on that. That is a, it's a full time job, nine to five for four years, we'll do it. [00:22:26] Speaker B: A lot of Time. [00:22:27] Speaker A: That is a ridiculous amount of time. And I actually remembered that. I almost remember to the day where I felt like it was. It was really the day I. I. You know, I'm a dentist full time, and I was working one day, and I suddenly realized I was just. I was. I was doing a filling and kind of really, you know, I've done a thousand of them, but I always, like, had to concentrate, and all of a sudden I was just like, I was done. And I was like, what just happened? And I realized it was like it hit me. And then, from then on, it was really like. It's like when you do a magic trick that you're so used to, you're not even thinking about it. You're not just the. It's like doing a spongebob trick, you know, I don't even think about it, but it really was. It was almost like it was happening by itself. You ever feel that when you're doing a trick that you've done a million times, you almost like you're on autopilot? Or do you still, like. Do you still feel like it's. It's. There's still, like, some parts happening? [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I have an interesting anecdote about that because, yes, of course. Love it. The more you do it, the better you're going to feel. I have a memory routine that I do at this point. I do it in every single show. It's my closer. It's a combination of reciting the score of whatever, like, win or loser score of whatever super bowl somebody names, solving a Rubik's Cube blindfolded, reciting PI. Memorizing people's names, whole thing. And I've pro. I've probably solved the Rubik's Cube 10,000 times. I don't know. So many times. This memory routine is pretty much on lockdown for me at this point. I've done it 100, 150 times. Obviously not, like, in the thousands, but, I mean, I. I can do it. And yes, two days ago, I'm on stage and I realized, like, I've gone over in the Rubik's Cube. Like, I was about to be there, messed up a step, need to restart. So I get close again, same routine, mess up, need to restart. And then I did the show last night, and I'm like, all right, no worries. Like a Rubik's Cube. Mess up is irrelevant. Not irrelevant, but, like, if it takes you slightly longer to solve a Rubik's Cube, people are fine with that. Especially blindfolded. Right. It's hard, but I'm like, I'll do it again last night, and it will be fine. Sure enough, I don't mess up twice when I mess up once. And I genuinely think part of it is a little bit of complacency with that routine where you've done it so many times that you go in so confident. And all the other stuff in the show that I was worried about, I didn't mess up because I was really, really caught conscious of it. This one, I'm like, rubik's. You I've done a billion times. And then you slightly mess it up. So, yes, I do think there is some level of, like, oh, it's great. But you do always have to refresh, I think, and just. It's a good reminder. Like, luckily, again, that's not a huge mistake. The audience didn't even really realize it, and if they did, it just created more tension because they're like, is he going to solve the Rubik's Cube blindfolded? But it was a really great reminder to just not get cocky. And, like, yeah, sometimes you practice the Rubik's Cube, even though you think you don't have to. Awesome. [00:25:13] Speaker A: I. It. You know, that That's. That's pretty brilliant. I'm. Rubik's Cube. Is. Is Rubik's Cubes still pretty popular? You still get a lot. Are you still getting a lot of mileage out of. Out of the Rubik's Cube? [00:25:25] Speaker B: The specific one that I do, yes. I agree. Like, a cube match. I would love to do. I would love to do it. I don't do it because I think it's too popular. [00:25:34] Speaker A: Got it. [00:25:34] Speaker B: It's the only reason. It's. It's great. It's. It's a. It's impossible. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah. It is insane. You're right, though. It's. It's. It. But it is everywhere you turn. So I. I get your. [00:25:43] Speaker B: That's my hesitancy. That's my only concern. The way I do it is combined with other things. So I used to do a blindfolded Rubik's Cube solve alone. Bad trick. Not bad. But it would not get huge reactions. People would clap and they would be impressed. That's it. But now I'm reciting the score of any Super Bowl. I'm doing the Rubik's Cube blindfolded. I'm guessing someone's phone password simultaneously. Like, there's a. There's probably five or six things going on at one time. So when they see me doing this real memory in My head genuinely solving a Rubik's Cube, people are like, it just adds to the impressiveness of what's going on. I have that routine in a pretty distinct kind of rule of three, so I think it works. There's the Rubik's Cube, there's the Super Bowls. There's a card thing at the end, and then there's the password comes out of nowhere. So I think in that context, totally fine on its own for me, would not be good enough. But the way that I've set it up, I'm happy with. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Okay. And you said the rule of three. For anyone who doesn't know the rule of three, which is. Is. It's more of a. It's something you would more learn as you're setting up. Yeah, it's a comedy thing. But what would you. How would you define that for somebody who doesn't know what that is? [00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So for comedy, it's basically the rule of three is the shortest amount, the shortest pattern you can make, while you can also break it. Right. So you can do one, two, surprise. And that's the third one in the structure of a joke. So someone might be listing, like, there was this. There was this. You expect the third thing, and that's a surprise. It's. Honestly, it's a pretty predictable formula if you're listening to it, so you can break it. As far as what I'm doing, it's just a pretty logical number. I'm asking the audience to follow a lot, and the setup is already long enough. If I added a fourth thing, it's on that verge of getting too long. Right. More does not always mean more impressive. But three is pretty easy to follow because the Super Bowls that I'm stating, that's auditory. Right. The Rubik's Cube is visual. I don't do the third thing until those other two things are done. So three is just a nice, simple number. Again, that's a rule that you can break. And I literally break it in the routine by adding the phone password as a fourth thing. [00:27:39] Speaker A: I love it. [00:27:40] Speaker B: So I don't think that it's a strict rule, but it's a nice baseline. [00:27:44] Speaker A: So do you do. Is your. When you do your act, is it how. I guess that kind of memory stuff kind of falls in mentalism when you say that you do more mentalism or more like magic. And it's kind of the same thing. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Definitely more mentalism. It's interesting because, you know, I used to think the audience doesn't really care, and to an extent, they don't to the extent that it's good. Right. But they will notice the difference. I've had a lot of people. I mean, obviously. Oh, I think Oz Perlman is probably the most famous magician in America right now. And a lot of people after the show are like, you're doing. Oh. Stuff. And I think all they mean is they don't have the vocabulary to say mentalism. Right. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:20] Speaker B: And if they do, then they'll just say, oh, that was cool. Like, I thought it was me more of a magic show, but this was more mentalism, wasn't it? Because they're trying to clarify. They might not know the term. And yes, the answer is yes. For me, I. I love mentalism. It's just what I'm drawn to. I do do like a Bill to Impossible Location with like a Pegasus page in the show just because I love it. But then the serial number of the bill will usually come back in some way in the show. I just. I love mentalism. It allows you to connect with the audience. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:45] Speaker B: And it's not to say the magic is bad. Right. It's great. [00:28:47] Speaker A: No. Are you drawn to, like, a lot of memorization kind of stuff? [00:28:50] Speaker B: Like real. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Okay, what's your. If you. Somebody wants to learn to get into memorization, is there like a system that you use or what? [00:28:59] Speaker B: Yeah, a hundred percent it's a system. And the funny part is it's not as hard as it seems. So this goes back to. I mean, it goes way back, much farther than Harry Lorraine. Harry Lorraine popularized memorizing names, for sure. I mean, we're talking about systems that are thousands of years old and go back to the Greeks of basically the memory palace. And. [00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. [00:29:18] Speaker B: All it distills down to. I mean, there's a few different techniques. And like the PEG system, what it distills down to is you're just creating a mnemonic or an image for everything that you want to remember. And there's different strategies to doing that if you're memorizing a number, an event, a name, something like that. So when I'm memorizing names, I'm going to associate an image with either that person's face, what they're wearing, who they're with, something that is a detail about them that's not going to change while they're at the show. Right. So it's like, if I knew you were a dentist, I can associate a tooth with your face and you make it as crazy as possible. Really big tooth, really small, really gruesome. Anything that's going to give it a very interesting twist. And you associate it with Todd. Right. Somehow. So for me, t tooth Todd, put that in your beard. Maybe the tooth has a beard, and you're going to get it pretty quickly. So that's brilliant. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:04] Speaker B: That's kind of a system of names for something like the Super Bowl. Right. You can use various techniques. So if you Take Super Bowl 35 is an interesting one. Right. The Ravens beat the Giants. Those are two pretty memorable. Pretty memorable image. Right? So you remember a massive raven flying over Bigfoot. Boom. Raven beats Giants. The score of that was 34 to 7. And so there's ways that, like, 34. For me, I think of 34th street in New York City, kind of it's a little bit south of Times Square, but it's pretty close. It's close enough in my head. And so I might think of a Times Square sign, which again, for some people, that might be 42. That's fine. For me, it's 34. And so I kind of imagine that sign with the Ravens seven is heaven. And maybe they die and go to heaven because they lost the Super Bowl. Right. And now you've taken these four images, associate them together, one more trick to get 35, and then you have it. And it sounds complicated, but, like, it might take five minutes to remember it. And you review and review and you review and then you stack those together and you've learned the Super Bowls, and you stack those mnemonics together and you've learned the name of an entire room. So. [00:31:15] Speaker A: So. So you've done that with every. You've done that with all the Super Bowls. [00:31:19] Speaker B: I've done that with all the Super Bowls. Yeah. Which is fun. [00:31:22] Speaker A: All right, Can I. Can I quiz you? All right. Super Bowl 5, Super Bowl 5 is. [00:31:29] Speaker B: The Baltimore Colts, though, beating the Cowboys 16 to 13. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Super Bowl 25. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Super Bowl 25 is going to be. This was the start of the Bills losing streak. So this is the Giants beating the bills 20 to 19. Otis Anderson, MVP of that one, too. [00:31:48] Speaker A: This is insane. All right, one more. Let's do Super Bowl 32. [00:31:54] Speaker B: I love this one because this is the Broncos and I'm from Denver. Super Bowl 32 is the Broncos beating the packers, who were going for the back to back because they won 31 against the Patriots and they beat them 31 to 24. [00:32:05] Speaker A: That is fantastic. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Thank you. That's one part of the memory routine that I do. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I just. And. And, oh, my God. Add that to other things I'm impressed with. Just that, and then you start stacking it on top of doing other stuff with it. [00:32:17] Speaker B: It's interesting to talk about rule of three because it happens within this routine, right? Like, if you do what I just did, which is win or loser score. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't build much drama, though. And so what I'm doing is solving the first layer of the Rubik's Cube, asking for three stuples. So again, another three. Right. And I'm saying the winner of each one. One layer solved at the white side solved. Yes. Great. Then I start to solve the second layer. I'm not telling people I'm doing it, but I'm just doing it. And then I go, oh, but everyone also has a loser, right? Loser, Loser, loser. We're closed, aren't we? And then that's usually after the second phase of the Rubik's Cube, where I'm like, oh, your phone password starts with a one, doesn't it? Right. So now they see what's happening, but then they don't. Again, that's like the fourth thing. And then the third phase. Score, Score. Halftime show mvp. Pulling every piece of information I know about this, at this point, comparing it to other ones. Third phase, third layer of the Rubik's Cube. That's off. So it's very interesting to think like that structure works pretty well, and it makes a memory routine, which is usually very boring. More interesting, I think, because I just say at the top, I memorize the winners. That's all I say. And then the losers, and then the scores, and then I'm throwing in. If there's a lot of college marching band halftime shows, I don't bother. Bother mentioning if it has. If it has a halftime show, it's going to get mentioned. And if it has an mvp, which every one of them does, is getting mentioned too. So that third one, you're just throwing the kitchen sink at them and trying to get as many. As humanly as many hits as you possibly can. Wow. Which is fun. Okay. I love. That's. [00:33:41] Speaker A: That's bl. [00:33:42] Speaker B: That. [00:33:42] Speaker A: That blows my mind. That's so cool. Do you use a memory stack? Which stack do you use? [00:33:46] Speaker B: Mnemonica. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Mnemonica. Okay. That seems to. That's everyone that. [00:33:49] Speaker B: That does. [00:33:49] Speaker A: It tells me to Monica. For me, that seemed intimidating because it's. I'm not a professional magician. Well, you know, but you're going to use this the rest of your life. So, like, what's the. You know, what's the big deal about. You know, it's 52 cards. And you're going to, you know, spend some time on it. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker A: And you're going to, you're going to be able to use this tool forever. [00:34:06] Speaker B: So I use it all the time. I think about one of the best time investments I ever made was like two weeks to memorize the Super Bowls got me my closer and something that is defining me when I perform. And as far as anyone who's nervous about a stack, what's interesting is like, and this is what I heard from Aussie Wind one time, like maybe a decade ago at a magic convention. I had never heard of Mnemonica. And then he stood on stage and fried the entire room, myself included. Aussie's, I think one of the most generous magicians in the world. And then started to explain it. And, and by the way, he has. [00:34:35] Speaker A: A new, he has a new book out on Vanishing Inc. So check that out. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's great. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Carry on. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And he was like, look, like we all know different words for different things, right? Like this is a pen. And it's also could be like a writing device in a different form. It could be a marker. Like we all know how to change things. We're asking you to do it 52 times. Like, I've known it for like 10 years now. And I honestly, it didn't take me long. Like, I started to vaguely learn it. I went to Tannins for one year. I think it was my first year. And at Tannins you're just performing like dozens of times a day, you know, Took me like a week to get it down. And I've remembered it for whatever the last 10 years. I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life. It's like I'm here to tell anyone who even thinks they have a bad memory. It's not that hard. Such a versatile thing. Whenever I'm. If you're with friends, doing tricks for strangers or whatever, it is so easy to cue a number to someone when you all know the same stack. Like, you can really help each other out. And there's so much you can do with it that isn't even strictly trick related. It's a way to get index cards. It's a way to associate things with different numbers. So, yeah, it's 52. It's like living 52 words in a language. You know, it's like the first week of Spanish. Like just. It's not that hard. Yeah, I would encourage anyone to do it. [00:35:45] Speaker A: And you can. I mean, it's just, it just, it. It's Insane, like just it just insane. A normal person. And this is, I'm. I was recently a very, very much one of them. Can't fathom somebody actually knowing the order of a deck of cards and all you need is a few false shuffles and you really, you would never in a million years think that. So it's, it's a killer, it's a killer thing to do. [00:36:09] Speaker B: It's an incredibly valuable skill. I mean there's so much on it, right. Leave a stack deck in someone's home that they don't touch. And it's just like the amount of times I've done that in my friends apartments. Can you do a trick? Sure. Grab the deck, I won't touch it. And it's like that stronger trick now. Like it is one of those things. You maybe have to invest a week. I'm telling you, two weeks. Like if you're doing it, if it's taking longer than two weeks, it's like you can just do it. I guarantee you if you use a mnemonic and there's all these books in the book, Mnemonica, tons of techniques, you don't even need to buy it. You should buy it because it's amazing. But just Google memory techniques, like they're all, they're all the same. Just convert and convert whatever month your birthday is at. Done. That's one number, right. Or whatever day of the month. Sorry, your birthday is at. There's that card. So you only have 51 more to go. [00:36:48] Speaker A: There you go. We're already, we're already, we're already down 1/5. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:53] Speaker A: I wasn't a math major so I can't. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:57] Speaker A: So I do have to ask. What is the craziest thing that's happened during a show? [00:37:03] Speaker B: Craziest thing that's happened during a show, probably. So myself and Tess toured with Stand Up Magic twice. We did it in March and then last August almost a year ago. And last August I was doing this like Bill under watch routine that involved some, some pseudo hypnosis, some real hypnosis basically. And I mean we were in San Francisco and I have all the audience, stand up, hand lock, right? Music's playing. And then one woman fainted and I was like, wow, I am so good at hypnosis. What actually happened is the room was just really hot. I think she was very dehydrated. I would guess that the combination of standing up, locking her hands, plus obviously the really hot room made her faint and, and she left the show with her boyfriend. But it was A really good lesson, honestly, it was definitely kind of crazy. I've never had that happen to me before. But the lesson was like. And a lot of people, like Darren Brown has said this in his recent book, like, no one cares about the show until that woman is okay, which is really important. So we stopped the show, made sure she had water checked in to make sure she was okay. She ended up sitting back down and then getting up probably two minutes later. And, you know, again, when she leaves, you pause the show, thank her for coming, make sure everything's okay. Like, at least for my character. Absolutely not the time to make jokes. Maybe like, Justin Willman or. Or like Nick Defo, like, someone who's really good at comedy could pull it off. I could not want to try. So, yeah, it was a good lesson, too. Another funny one is I was doing a corporate gig. Big, big, big, like, pharmaceutical company. The team I was performing probably crazier. The team I was performing for basically had no idea about their job security. They've experienced layoffs, like, at the convention or something, from my understanding. So it was one of those things where I'm, like, coming on stage, then they do some awards, and I come back on stage, and right before I was about to do the finale, like, the boss of. The boss of whatever team was there came on and essentially, like, happy to give you awards. We also don't need to admit that we've built a resilient company. We don't know what's happening right now with, like, everyone's jobs. Go close the show. It was like. It was wild. [00:39:10] Speaker A: It was letting the air out of the tires. [00:39:12] Speaker B: It was very, like, big corporate America. It was funny, too, because then one of the guys forgot that I was closing the show. So he goes, thanks, everyone. Leave. And on my head, I'm like, great. I don't need to close the show. They're in a much worse situation. I'm totally fine with just not. I'm getting paid the same amount. Like, I do not need to close. But then someone else is. Like, I'd set up a trick and, like, we want to see the end. So now people are standing. They have to sit back down. I have to close the show. Disaster. But pretty funny. Like, it's. It's one of those. I mean, not funny for them, but, like, I don't want to. I would rather that have not happened. What's interesting, though, is, like, you have these things happening often. They're going to happen more and more, and it's a sign that you're in it for long enough. I've been doing professional magic for two and a half years. The fact that I really. I mean, I'm sure I have plenty of others I'm not remembering, but the fact that there's those two main stories sticking out, it's like I'm not there yet. Right. You got to get 10, 20, 30 years of experience and have huge amounts of stories. But those are two of the craziest ones, for sure. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. You mentioned Justin Willman. I had a. I had a Justin Wilman question. I watched. Did you see his Netflix special? [00:40:12] Speaker B: I did, yeah. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Okay. Did. Do you think that that memorization was legit, being that you're. Because that is a. If he said, if there are like 63, 000, like, combinations for. For anyone watching, he. You could say your zip code and he would tell you what town it was in, what state. That's a lot. In your opinion, is that even. Is that possible to do, or do you think that that was in. It was possibly an illusion. [00:40:39] Speaker B: I know for a fact that it's possible. At least one person I know for sure has done it. I don't know the world record for PI memorization is, but I think it's around a hundred thousand. So it's definitely possible. I don't know for sure what method he was using or if he was using one. So I don't want to say anything publicly that I don't know for sure, especially about someone's method on Netflix. All I can say is it's worth seeing. I saw it live at the Kennedy center, actually, and it's a. It's a great act regardless of what the method is. I mean, it's an obscene amount to memorize. And. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Well, I mean, he didn't have anything in his ear. I mean, so, I mean. And I, you know, the. That last trick that he did, you know, and I could catch some of the things he was doing was. Was very, you know, very classic, very, very clean, very, very good. And that. But that last one that he did with the. The animals bothers me that I don't have any, like, I don't even know one part of how he did that. So I'm sure other people do that, are watching it, but I just haven't gotten that to that level yet. [00:41:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's a great. It's a great act. And, yeah, as someone who does memorization, I'm like, that's great. I mean, you know, I. I think that anything that's contributing positively to magic is generally a Good thing. I think the zip code act is great. I think he's incredibly likable. So. Yeah, good. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I like to, I like to say, well, I mean, a rising, rising tide lifts all boats. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:00] Speaker A: I guess. [00:42:01] Speaker B: I think most of the time it does, yeah. Yeah. [00:42:03] Speaker A: I like to see more, I'd like to see more on Netflix and, and I'd like to see more magic stuff out there just because it puts it. What's like, without David Blaine, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have ordered Those street magic DVDs from illusionist and I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't have had nearly the fun that I'm having today without those, without those things. So, I mean, there is, you know, there's, there's something to be said about that. [00:42:27] Speaker B: That's, it's, yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I think that a magic Netflix special, regardless of who it is, is good for magic because it sets a standard of you can have a Netflix special that's a cool thing to shoot for and it's going to require originality. What's interesting in magic, and I think it's probably pretty obvious to most magicians, is like, he's not necessarily doing all of his own tricks, he's not necessarily using all of his own props. It's not a problem. We all do that. I don't know a single magician who works with 100% props that they made and premises that they made because that's, it's like saying, go cook, but go cook with nothing that's ever been used to cook before. Right, right. [00:43:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Nearly impossible. Even though you can obviously and should obviously still have originality within that. So the difficulty is with magic specials, they're much harder to differentiate than say, a comedy special. That's still a really, really, really good standard. And I think it is going to push the art forward and if we start having multiple magic specials, magic will be respected more, I guarantee you. So I think it is a net positive. [00:43:27] Speaker A: Well, I'm, I'm actually, I'm impressed with you. Like two years out of college and you're, you know, you're, you're producing your, you know, your own show, you're booking gigs, you're, you're, you're working as a full time magician. I mean, you're really living like the dream that a lot of people have. So thanks. I mean, and it's the best thing is, is like you've done so much already and you, there's so much that you can continue to do. So what's your, what's your next plan? Like, what is. Where do you see yourself going from here? [00:43:55] Speaker B: Well, Test and I are doing the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in August, so less than a month from now. So we get to do a run there. And if people don't know, the Edinburgh Fringe Festival is the biggest fringe festival in the world. So it's a bit like going to New York. We're not going to be the best, we're not going to be close to the best, but we're going to be surrounded by the best and we're going to get to work out our show with the best as our competition. And I think that's going to make us really strong. She was out here in Denver the past two days and we were doing our show. The amount it changed from night one to night two and then after it was last night, after last night we're like, yeah, we're going to change it in these ways. And so we're going to do that 24 times in Edinburgh. Fingers crossed. That show is going to get pretty good because it's already at a level that I'm pretty happy with, but I know it can get a lot better. So that is the immediate next thing. And then I've been out of New York for, by the time I get back, four months, so I'm really excited to just get back in the fall, which is, you know, the summer is slow. Ish for a lot of people. I consciously made it slow for myself. Probably would've been slow even if I didn't make it that way. So people are back. I've got events that I'm really looking forward to. I'm excited for holiday season as always, because it's a grind, but it's really fun and you get to just, you're doing, you're doing walk around one night you're doing stage, the next day you're in a public show, the next night you're doing two gigs, the night after that for like 20 straight days. So that's really fun. And yeah, I'm just genuinely excited to be back in New York and just living the New York life. And Denver's been awesome and Edinburgh I'm sure will be great, but New York's got its own vibe. We've been off for stand up magic all summer because I've been out of town. So we're gonna start that up again in New York for fall to spring run. And I love that show very, very deeply. So, yeah, a lot of very good things on the agenda. Very cool. [00:45:29] Speaker A: I'm gonna do the. The closing and then. Oh, but before I do, is there anything that you feel like I missed that would be a really cool thing to know about you or to talk about? [00:45:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I'll say is a brief anecdote is like, I think if you know me, you know, I do magic and then I do marathons and right now and Ironman triathlon. And I only say that to be like, I see a lot of people who are very one track and they're just doing magic. And there's nothing really wrong with that. It just probably means you're obsessed with magic and you're really good at it. And so I don't mean to criticize that in any way, but what's been cool over the past few months, and again, this race I'm doing is literally a week from today, so I'm mostly at the end of that period. [00:46:11] Speaker A: And Ironmans are no joke. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Hence why I took time off to do it. But it's been a really rewarding time where I've come back and done shows probably twice a month. So pretty small relative to what I was doing. And I've loved it. I've been like, this is great. I've still got it. Like, it's a good reminder you're not going to lose your magic if you take a couple months off. You might be a little rusty, but you're not going to. Like, four months is not that much time, but it is enough time to train for an Ironman. And so for me, I'm like, I'm happy that my, my kind of ROI on this time, assuming that the race goes well, next week will be pretty high. And it just makes my personality, in my opinion, more interesting. And I don't think I'm the first one to do this. Right. Darren Brown does these massive two 5500 show tours, takes time off, goes and writes a book. So what's he coming out with? He's coming out with an amazing tour slash show and a book. Right. And rather than trying to necessarily continue to tour forever and burn yourself out and continue to write a book and burn yourself out. And granted, he does talk about how kind of juice them simultaneously, like right in the morning and perform at night, he's learned to take time off. I think Aussie wins. Another great example, obviously one of the best magicians in the world. Also a phenomenal painter, a phenomenal photographer, a great, like backgammon player. He has all these other interests and hobbies that he's really good at. Right. And I think it's cool to look at the people who are at the top and really succeeding and, and know that it's okay to take time off. I've done the math. I'm pretty sure I'm still going to be able to do 150 shows this year with four months off. And yes, it's because of tour in Edinburgh, which really stack shows, but it's a way to do it. And so the only thing I would say is like, if you feel stuck on the treadmill, you do have to consciously figure out a way to take time off if you're going to do. It doesn't have to be four months, it could be one week. But it's almost, almost always worth it because if you have a project and a plan, you're going to come out with something really cool or, and this is fine too. You'll just be more relaxed. You'll just be like, I took a week off for myself, which is so hard for us to do, but also super healthy. So that's the only little thing I'd add that's fantastic. [00:48:06] Speaker A: This has been absolutely awesome. Thank you, Max. This has been absolutely awesome. You know, from the grind of producing a show in two cities to doing Ironman's. Thank you for sharing your story and honestly, like a really good amount of wisdom. And for everyone watching, don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment about your favorite moment and share this episode with a magician who needs a creative boost. You can follow Max Davidson and check out Standup Magic at this website. Max Davidson, magic.com. also follow him on Instagram. You've got some, you've got some great pictures. Are you going to be posting pictures of your, your Iron man or. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean there's always a tiny caveat that you could always like DNF or have a bike problem. But yes, assuming I finish it and I'm alive, then yes, I will absolutely post in some pictures. I'm not going to let four months of work go unseen, I'll say that, but I'm a little vain. [00:48:57] Speaker A: Well, I, I, you know what, it's, I have, I have four kids. I work a full time time thing. And so for me that's just not, that's not gonna happen. But, but I, I love to live vicariously through other people that are active. So that's, that's fantastic. [00:49:11] Speaker B: I appreciate it. Four kids and a full time job is more work than I have right now. So it's great. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you're good. Don't rush that. I'll tell you that. Until next time, keep working on your craft. Keep surprising people. Make sure to keep practicing for your Iron Mans and we will see you soon. Goodbye, everybody.