Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm Dana Herz and I am here on Magician's Workshop.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Dana Herz has always loved performing. She grew up in a show business family that filled their home with a steady stream of entertainers. Today, with her interactive and mind blowing magic, mentalism and humor, she brings a contagious energy as well as laughter to every event. She's a regular for corporate groups and is often sought after for fundraisers, clubs, and private parties. Welcome to the show, Dana Herz.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Woo. All right. That was less bad than I thought it might be.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Oh, I want to hear. Why did you think it would be bad?
[00:00:48] Speaker A: I don't know. It's just bios feel very self.
I mean, I think that I have been in the magic world like my whole life. No, I know. How about I know how full of it all magicians tend to be.
And I think people kind of get in this trap of like hearing it, but I think, or like believing their own bios and like that. And people put so much stress and pressure into them when really at the end of the day, it's like, do the people like your personality and do you do good magic? So I think the bios, they're great support, but it doesn't really tell you much about a person.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: I do want to talk about you specifically your company, Magicorp Productions, which is the largest consulting agency in the world that specializes in magic, illusions, and variety arts. Is that.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: It's almost like you just made that up perfectly. Yeah, that does cover it.
Yeah. Do you want me to tell you kind of how the company started and stuff like that?
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do that. Part two. I want to talk about you first, and then I want to get a little bit of your perspective in magic. And then I want to go and talk a lot about that company, which I think is a super cool idea. I mean, I fix teeth. I'd much rather like, you know, sign artists.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: But you will appreciate, my dad, back in the day with my mom, actually had a whole magic kit just for dentists. What a dental convention? And it was like, yeah, okay, I'll. I'll have him. It was a whole, like, that was their whole thing.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to hear about this. That sounds amazing.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: I don't know how much, but I remember my mom was being used because it was like demonstrative that anyone could do it because she's like, never performed any magic. So it was like, oh, see, even you, Mr. Dentist can do or Ms. Dentist can do it. And so, yeah, they had because it was kind of like in the idea of how I assume like you try to make your. The environment, the whole environment, something.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: It's just, you know, a way to kind of ease the.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Oh my God. That's exactly what I. Yeah, that's exactly what I do. And that's how I got into magic. I ate. I ran into a magic dentist in Chicago and I loved what he did. And I was really, really anxious about doing dentistry because I was only a year out and I really hated everything about it. Once I started doing magic tricks for people, I mean, it was like night and day and my life got so much better. That's amazing that he had an idea.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: It was like exactly like that. Like, that's still an idea that he references as one. That was like a great idea that just like didn't take off.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: I feel like there's still some legs there. I feel like there's a lot of.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Legs in a lot of direct. That's kind of why we end up doing a lot of projects is like they're. I think a lot of people have such a limited kind of view of where magic can fit. And what I think I, from my family have seen is like, I really enjoy finding how magic can fit in non magical settings. So like, I like being the magic addition rather than have it all be about me kind of. Because I really, I do like to have kind of a participatory role as much as it is that the like spotlight is on me. It's like I want it to feel like a collective even though I understand that I'm the one performing.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: I got it. So you want to be inclusive, you know, when you're performing.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: And I think, I mean, I think that's also why I tend to lean towards. I mean, I have a stage mentalism show, but I really like close up and parlor stuff just because my favorite part of the whole thing is the interaction. And I think the tricks are kind of secondary. I think trick selection is just as important as personality. But I think that like the actual abilities come. They're very important, but in line with the trick selection, if that makes sense.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: It does make sense. And I'm making notes because I want to come back to how you specifically look for tricks. Because that's something that I always have a hard time with. I've got like a million different tricks that go in a drawer and I don't know if I knew a little bit more about how to pick them for me, that would probably save me a ton of money over time.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. But I But be. But be rest assured that we've all spent, like, stupid money on things that we will never touch.
Absolutely.
Things.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: And I'm like, e, what is your biggest regret? Biggest regret? Buying.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Okay. Well, they're not regrets because I think they're bad tricks. They're like, regrets because it doesn't fit for me, I would say, like, I think that some people do it really well. I have this phantom bell that just does not work with my personality.
I don't. I don't do kind of supernatural stuff. And so when I tried to sell it, I couldn't believe it. Same reason as I can't really sell anything that has tarot, because I kind of walk the line of, like, I could do a great big tarot reading, but I think it's a little too important to a lot of people. I don't want to start crossing into, like, imposing on whatever helps them get through the day because I have a strong opinion about psychics.
But I also think that if it's just a validating source in your life, it can be okay as long as it's not creating this need that's like, you wouldn't have these answers or these opportunities if I weren't there. So.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: People will always ask me, like, what do you think of psychics? And I'll kind of try to ask first, well, what. What is your relationship with psychics? Because I don't want to. And I'll tell that. And they're like, no, no, I want to know what you think I'll tell them. And then always it ends with, yeah, but my psychic, you're just like, okay, yeah.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: And. Yeah.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: And that's what gets you through. Like, it's better than a lot of things. Yeah.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: And you're not going to change their mind, you know, about. So, I mean. Yeah, you don't want to.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: I'm not going to, like, tell them, like, here's the ways that it could work. Like, I mean, sometimes I'll get into cold reading a little bit, but that's really the step.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: I think it's important for everyone to understand cold reading. So you. You know, I think that'll keep you out of a lot of trouble.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: I mean, I think. I think it'll keep you out of a lot of trouble. But I also think that it's really demonstrative of how much more similar we are than we are. How much more alike we are than we are different in a way that cold reading is such a simple concept, but it is really demonstrative of the Fact that there is a finite amount of emotions and experiences, even though they can kind of be tangled in all different ways, different experiences will invoke the same emotions in different people.
And that is a finite thing. And I think the more that people are vulnerable, they see those kind of connections. And that's kind of what cold reading allows.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
Let's get some more into you. So this is probably a loaded question. What is your earliest memory of magic?
[00:07:36] Speaker A: It's kind of definitely blurred. I haven't ever had a life without it being such a dominant part. And it's only taken. It's taken until the last two years for me to realize kind of that the people I'm surround, surrounded with, have been surrounded with are not. It's not a normal upbringing because I didn't really know it, but I met a magician who I really like. His name is Matthew Teague. He. I. I don't think enough people know him, so I just like to bring him up. He's.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah, plug him.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Incredible close up. I mean, incredible performance, but just has such a gentle nature that's also really engaging. And I just think everyone should be a fan. But I kind of will bring up names to him and stuff like that. You know, stories from when we were childhood with like, say, David Williamson. I was telling him, who's a. Who's for anyone that's not kind of someone that a lot of people look up to. One of the best showmen ever. And I'm like, yeah, you know, me and Ben, his son, would just hang out in the hotel while our dads would do shows in the ballroom downstairs. And I didn't realize that, like, everyone doesn't have this magic community around them.
So the reason I actually call myself a mentalist is because, well, one, I think people already have a perception with magic. So it kind of just lets me get around that and define it for myself.
But also because I never got to experience.
Most people get into magic because they had an experience that wowed them. They saw a show that was incredible. I only really ever saw from the backside. So I needed to kind of back up and understand how and why we're tricked. Because I still get to the point now where I'll do a trick and kind of stand there, be like, no, that couldn't have fooled you. And it's not in like a pandering way. It's like I really can't conceptualize how that could trick someone. So I think that that's when I started because it's just all I've ever been around. That's when I started kind of understanding how cool it was when I kind of took a step back and tried to see it through other people's eyes.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: When did you decide to take a step back? Like, where in your journey did you decide, like, I gotta see how this is done or how people perceive it?
[00:09:48] Speaker A: I came back and forth. I think I've always been really interested in psychology and how that works. I kind of always was more interested in that end of it. Like, I love everything with scams and everything like that. I came in and out of it growing up. I mean, I got my allowance going to the Society of Young Magicians in Stanford, Connecticut, where Ryan Oakes was the cooler, older kid. He's a great, great magician.
I don't. I've, like, always wanted to tell him I was like, you were the kid, but I've never told him that. Maybe I have, but I don't know. Ryan, you were so cool.
Still are. And so I did that growing up. But I did always feel like I didn't belong. Like, combination of being the daughter and being a female was just a. I was in the room, but I didn't feel like I was part of the room, kind of.
So I did pull back for a while in college. I did just stand up. And at that point, I found that the part that I really enjoyed the most was the guest interaction or the audience interaction. And I found that I'm really.
The thing I'm probably best at is crowd work. And at the same time, most crowd work, if done in the way that I would do it, would leave somebody feeling a little bit worse, even if it wasn't intentional. And I just, like, hated the idea that anyone would leave feeling a little bit worse. So I found that introducing a little bit of magic allowed me to have that interaction while still having the comedy piece and then having everybody leave in a better place. I mean, unless you're being a jerk, and then I will make you feel not great. But that's on you.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Hecklers. Hecklers be damned.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: It's like, hecklers are okay sometimes because they're at least engaged. It's more of just, like, rude for the sake of it and not paying attention.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: So I did stand up. Then I decided, like, let's give it a shot in television. Because, you know, I've been around live entertainment. Why not?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: I like how casually you just said, yeah, I'm just going to go into television. Why not?
[00:11:54] Speaker A: I mean, I was studying, and so the school I went to, you do like six months school, six months full time work.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Oh, cool.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: And so I did a six month stint at the Maury Povich show.
And that. I know, I love that show.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: It's a guilty pleasure.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: It was like the most immoral thing I've ever been a part of.
We would only put Red Bull and sodas in the adult's room and then we would go in, like a senior producer would go into each and be like, you should hear what they're saying about you. Like, they are just like, they're making stuff up while they're just like on Red Bull. I bought so many cubic zirconium rings from Target for people to propose on stage.
So after I did that, I was like, I'm done with tv. I don't like tv. Cool. I tried it, but I went out to la, I got a job in production, I did street magic in Santa Monica for a while and then I got a job in production on the Ellen show. And so I was there for a bit. And that kind of just confirmed for me that no thank you for tv.
And then I became a tour manager for a magician and kind of just was like, all right, you know what, la, that whole scene is just, it doesn't work for me at all. So I ran away to the mountains of Northern Arizona for two years to become a candle carver because I just needed to get away, so why not Sedona and Flagstaff? And then I decided I needed to come back and like, re. Engage with the world a bit. And so when I came back, it was actually right when Covid kind of was starting. Like, I moved to San Diego a month before COVID started.
And so it was kind of weird because I was in this in between state of doing some performing, but not, not a ton. And I found everybody was creating these virtual shows and I, anyone I was invited to, I was like, this is, this is boring. And it's not because the magician wasn't engaging. I'm just, that's not like a style, I, I think. I mean, to me magic is a live art and I appreciate all of the magic on TV and everything, but I do feel like in the end it is meant to be enjoyed, like interpersonally.
And so I was like, how do we create an engaging experience? And so I started with my friend who's a comedian. We started, we called it Magic Happy Hour. And so the idea was, first of all I was like, I don't want to build a set. Like some of my friends, like Tom Pachay, he built such A cool set, but I was lazy with it. And I tend to, like, to lead with, like, if the magic's good, then we don't need to worry about the other stuff. It might be a lazy mentality, but it's how I work.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: I feel you. I understand 100%.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: I'm just like, if the cards and everything is great, like, we don't need the rest.
That's also my style. Like, I won't perform with anything that doesn't look like something you could find in your house. Like, that's just a rule across the board for me.
But so I realized we, like, we needed to feel fully engaged. So we called it Magic Happy Hour. And it was half performing, half teaching. And it was supposed to be, like, from my living room to yours. But what I would do is I would introduce a concept such as misdirection. And then I would say, I'm about to do a trick. Just know that what I'm going to do is using misdirection. You're. You're not going to see it, but that is what I'm going to use. And then I would teach a trick using that concept.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: And so it was really cool because everybody then got to go home and show whoever. I mean, not go home, they were home, but, like, they got to go to the other room and show whoever they were with, you know, three. Three new tricks. And it was a cool, engaging way. And they were all ones that could be done over zoom and could be integrated into meetings and stuff like that. So that actually felt to me like kind of a turning point where I was just like, the more people get a little bit of a taste of the behind the scenes, the more engaged they get in what you're doing. And if I know some people kind of are like, doesn't that ruin, you know, the mystic mystery, the. The magic behind it? And I think it really does the opposite. And just like any magician who has, like, seen a little bit, it just sparks an interest and an excitement that makes them so much more engaged. So for me, that was kind of like when things I feel, like, shifted, because it was when I was like, oh, the experience is really so much more important than the technical magic. And, I mean, I do believe that your magic technically should be great, but I don't really care if my pass isn't perfect music, but I don't have.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: I hope so.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think that's where I sometimes differ from other magicians, is how much I think it's personality and trick decision based Which I think we can see in so many of our favorite magicians. I mean, if you look at Matt King, it's like he knows the tricks that work for him. He has the best character and personality. And there are tricks that have stayed in his routine because they are so innately his.
And so I think that's kind of an example of it, really. I mean, that leads. We've all seen. I feel like a lot of the magicians who are so technically great and boring. So boring to watch.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree. Matt King is a perfect example of just having everything. Everything he does is amazing.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So we represent him for actually pretty much any shows outside of Las Vegas. His act is a really good example of the need to kind of develop the character. Because if you were to take a kind of just a little two minutes out of his thing and you didn't know the character, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Whereas you see a lot of the AGT types and what they have is two strong minutes and they don't have character. So it's like in a lot of ways those are really great moments. But the actual great shows are those sustained characters who have created kind of a whole longer established dynamic.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: So is that one of the secrets to long term success? If you're going to have a long running show like him? Is the character really important?
[00:18:30] Speaker A: I think it depends what your goal is. I think for Vegas that really helps. But it depends who your audience is. I don't know that like a character would work. I don't know that Mac's character would have the same kind of greatness and success at like a slick New York place.
And that's because he knows his audiences and everything like that. And I think a character is one direction you can go and I think another direction is to really lean into an exaggerated version of who yourself, who you are, which I think is what Mac does.
But he goes really far to that and really commits. And I mean that's what makes all of, I think more than having the character, it's really committing to whatever it is you decide your representation is going to be like fully going wholeheartedly. I mean, another back to David Williamson. It's like he leaves it all on the stage and I think just those people that.
And those are the ones that kind of stick out. The ones that have left their shit, I don't want to say left their shame behind, but really left everything they have out there for people to take or leave.
I realize that I end up just like in My normal life just talking a lot and talking in circles. So I'm trying to avoid that.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: So actually that's what I want. I'm not speak. Whatever. So, again, thank you for taking to.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: Do this, because I saw Rachel Wax had done that, and we did a show earlier this year, and she's just a great. I just think she's a great magician. She's a great example of you can kind of like, what I was saying is you can fully be yourself, but you need to just commit to that.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah, she's like an exaggerated version of herself, like you were saying. And that works really well for her. That's the hardest I've ever laughed at a Penn and Teller episode. Who you would think would have a huge ego, but actually does not.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: I mean, the other way is easy, but let's start naming egos.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no giveaways, but is there anyone who you're like, obviously they would just not be approachable, but they're actually like the nicest human being.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: I mean, I would say Zabreki is like one of the nicest people ever. I don't know that he seems it, but his character, if you didn't know him personally, seems a little dark and scary. And I don't think there's anyone sweeter.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: Okay. So, yeah, go back to. If you don't know who Zabrecki is, go back and watch the Carissa episode. Carissa Hendricks, she talks all about Zabreki.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: And I mean, to me, Zabreki is such a good example, again, of the importance of character, because he's.
I feel like he's put a lot more work into figuring out who his character is over the years, and the magic is an incredible support for that. But it only works because of how in line it is. So when other people try to do tricks that he kind of masters and stuff like that, it can feel out of place because it's so innately him.
It reminds me of something years ago. I remember Patton Oswald saying, do you get mad or anything when people steal your trick? I mean, steal your jokes? And he was like, I mean, I write jokes that. That wouldn't sound right coming out of anybody else. And that I thought was really interesting because I'm not really ever scared of anyone taking my material, whatever, because I know how to deliver it.
But so, yeah. So back to the other. But so I think Zabrek is incredibly humble. I mean, all of the kind of tough guys are. I think it's always the ones that are like, striving to prove that they're good enough that have the bigger egos, the ones who are really confident in their career.
I think. I think more than ego is people would be surprised how many of the top names regularly get very nervous, because I'll talk to a lot of younger magicians and stuff like that, and they look at them. I'm like, I just was talking to one of them right before their show, and they were doing breathing exercises. So I think more than not a lot of ego is how much doubt there still is in even the top, top guys and girls.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Wow. I've never. I would never have expected that.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's. I think magic really calls on people who tend to be kind of insecure because it is a communication method that allows for bonding and communication without a lot of actual interpersonal skills.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Get out of my head.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: That's the craziest, most accurate thing I've ever heard anyone say about my life. And it. It bothers me that it's so obvious.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: I mean, I think you're killing it socially. I think you're so good.
I think it was Derek Hughes. I think it was his joke where he said, another great comedy magician for anyone is last. I think this was his line. Last kid around the track and gym is the first to get a magic kid for Christmas.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: And it's just like, get out of my head. Derek Hughes.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's correct. So I think that's why there can be kind of a disconnect a lot of times.
And I think a lot of I kind of. Back to Rachel. I think we're kind of similar in the sense that we both grew up in families that had magic and we didn't find it. So I think we kind of lead with our personalities because we know the magic didn't kind of come from an obsession with magic. It came from somebody that we love or people we love, kind of like infusing magic into our lives. I don't want to speak for her, but that's.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: I.
That. That definitely tracks. Let's pivot. What inspired the creation of the company Magic Corp.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: So Magicorp Magic Corp, because it's, like, really based in corporate. So my parents started Magic Corp in the 19.
The 1900s? No, in the 90s.
My mom's background. She was part of the team that started Comedy Central, and then my dad.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: That's super dope, by the way. It's my favorite channel of all time, next to the Food Network.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: It's a fun shadow to live it.
Yeah. It's like, I'm not going to be starting Comedy Central, let's be honest.
And then so she had like the really the business sense, whereas my dad has business sense, but not in the kind of keeping financials and all of that. Like my dad, my mom has the business school thing, whereas my dad.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: He.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Kind of really started his career with understanding the experiential. So basically from really early on, he's this weird combination. Like, my dad is an anomaly in case he watches this. I'm not going to talk him up too much because I don't want his ego to get too big.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Bill, how did he get started?
[00:25:24] Speaker A: So he's been doing it. He kind of as he got a kit for when he was 7, and then he would travel with his friend Paul Cummins, who was an incredible sleight of hand magician. They grew up together. He unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but they traveled. And then my dad kind of did magic all growing up. He ended up doing it through college, really was fully engaged, and then went to grad school for restaurant and hotel and restaurant management at Cornell because he wanted to open a magic restaurant and then decided he didn't want to actually have the restaurant. He just wanted magic.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Good call.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah. He's like, wait, now I have to work with other people and have a thing? No, thank you.
But. So he started just doing magic like everybody, but pretty quickly realized that people really wanted to cheer for people in their.
In their company. And he's always been corporate focused. You know, it's like corporate. I've been to more corporate ballrooms than like, anyone should ever have to go into in their lives. Ballroom B is like where I grew up. But started creating his illusion. So he did a lot more illusions back in the day, and he actually built a bunch of them to fit, fit executives. So an assistant would go in and then an executive would come out. And it was really successful because everybody wanted to appear. But then at one point, he did it with Bill Gates and ended up on the COVID of the Wall Street Journal.
And so at that point, he had more business than he could possibly, you know, use or do himself. And he realized that when they would call him and he wasn't available, they would then move on and find another magician. And the problem with magic is there's a lot of really great magic, but there's even more bad magic.
And people didn't really stop to think, especially event planners, like, what is the difference? What makes someone a good magician? What would make it good for the group? And he found that when an event Planner would go on to the next magician. Often they would bring them in and they'd have a bad experience and say, okay, we don't like magic. And that's not something you would do with any other art form. I mean, if you had a bad band or a bad singer one year, you wouldn't be like, all right, we're good on music. You'd be like, that was a bad band.
So he was like, if we can control the quality that's going out, they're going to come back time and time again. So he kind of just started by, you know, filling those slots with the people, but being a really good people person and having a lot of friends. He really was able to build just a huge network of event planners and companies and DNCs and everything who started seeing magic not just as an option, but turning to him as a kind of solution for how magic could be incorporated into all sorts of events, both interactive, performatively, all sorts of ways.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: So he started out using his connections to get people to fill those roles. Did he find that. Was it easy if he wasn't available? Was it. Was it easy for him to just say, oh, I've got another guy, or would they. Or would they have to pitch themselves? How. How would he decide who gets what?
[00:28:41] Speaker A: So he would. He handles all of the pitches. I mean, we're. I'm doing some of it now, but he would, like, really takes on each event myopically in terms of the fact that he doesn't like one size does not fit all. There are a lot of magicians that are the absolute best and aren't right for corporate groups. There are ones that are great for kind of like macho men. I mean, the difference in what I've seen between audiences, like the difference in bankers and tech guys, what I can get away with saying the points that I can hit them on. I mean, so much of it is so much of the interpersonal psychology.
And I think that he's been able to understand what each performer brings to the table, where their strengths are, and using that could fill it in for each group. And I think because he was good at it, it got to the point where most event planners, and still this is the case, often won't even look. I mean, often he'll send four or five videos, but it also often is like, you know what? This is, who should do it, and they understand he has the expertise that just this person will fit right for this.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: Wow. I'm sure when he started out, it was a lot of people he knew already. But as time goes on, how do you get more magicians on your roster? Do they come to you and apply or do you reach out to them? How does that work?
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Combo. The roster is kept pretty small because kind of of the belief the roster is completely exclusive. So a lot of the people we book are not on the roster, but the roster will always be the first people pushed. So if an event comes in and they need three magicians, we're going to pitch three from that roster.
However, if something comes in and they're looking for something really specific, and we know of a magician that would be a great fit, like, we're always going to bring that person in, but we always want to make sure that we can provide enough work. And so if you're a magician who doesn't have the right voice or the right message or the right field for corporate, it's in no way indicative of your quality as a magician, just whether or not you're right. I mean, 99% of comedians would not be okay for corporate.
So I think it's also just remembering that it's kind of a different ballgame. I mean, there's a lot about performing for corporate groups that I really don't like, and there are a lot that I really do like and, like, weighing it out. I think the upsides outweigh it because ultimately I look at it as I'm performing for the individuals, not for the company. So, like, I kind of have a belief that if you can bring more joy into people's lives, they're going to make better decisions for the world. I mean, that's probably a zoomed out way of having to think about it, but I think for me, magic is so special when you can bring magic to people who weren't expecting it. So after the war in Ukraine broke out, my family went. We went for two weeks to Poland to perform for Ukrainian refugees. And so we just like went to all different places. They would be in gyms or abandoned malls. And just seeing the fact that magic could make them leave their painful realities for even a second was just like such an incredible feeling that's not parallel to anything that you would experience, you know, when you're at a banking convention. Um, but the, the excitement and awe and childlike wonder just kind of like cold reading is a thing that can be shared and is shared.
So that's that. But I got off topic. We were talking about who we pick for the roster.
So with the roster, so. So especially with corporate, there's a lot of different Possible needs. So there's like an MC need that means that needs to be someone who doesn't need a lot of time to establish their character, can come out and do a few contained bits that start and wrap up in potentially 2 minutes, potentially 10 minutes. Can carry the flow of the meeting. Kind of has the confidence. So that's going to be one direction. Then you can have the stage magician, for the most part, is going to be a really, really strong magician who's also going to never offend anyone. So that's an area in corporate that you lose a little bit of your ability to kind of like fully lean into being you. Because you do need to focus on the fact that, like, there is an intention, there is a reason for this meeting and often will be asked to incorporate the messaging. So making sure that whoever it is, I mean, to do it, you, you know, you change the word loyalty to teamwork to whatever.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: But synergy cycle back.
[00:33:47] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, this is what happens when we work together. Well, this is what happens when we innovate. Like, you can do it the same, but you just need to be able to kind of be turned into that.
But that's one place where I think, you know, at like a magic convention, the quality of the magic leads so much. I mean, the little intricacies, the personality is really what. So if anyone was looking to do corporate or move more into corporate, it's just about having a really relatable personality. We really want it so that anybody performing the. The takeaway is, I want to. I want to grab a beer with that person. So it's not, who was that wizard? Who was that? So it tends to be kind of staying away from anything that's gimmicky, anything that's too magicky. We kind of want it to be a magician who could also be somebody that worked for the company, but instead actually happens to be a magician.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Which I don't always think is equated to being the most creative, the most. Whatever. So I also just want to clarify because I do think there are a lot of magicians who we've said aren't quite right for the roster, whatever. And it's not indicative at all of quality of performer. It's just indicative of knowing what corporate groups are looking for.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: Okay.
What kind of events do you. Does Magic Corp provide? Like, what. I don't know how to say it right.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: Corporate is like 99% of it. We really kind of stay in that lane because by moving too far out of it, then you're kind of Imposing on other things. I've kind of taken on a couple of different directions that I'm currently in the works of. So I'm not going to talk about it right now. But I have like a few different directions where I'm really excited about being able to source magicians both for either a longer period of time, like an extended stay, or for more one offs in another market. I'm doing a trade show in a couple of weeks to promote that. But I think the corporate is so much the bread and butter for so many reasons. I mean one, one of the obvious is it's great financially, it's silly, but we, whatever we charge is a rounding error for them.
So even if it feels. And that's what kind of can be hard too when you're kind of quoting somebody when they're like, can you do my party? And you're like, these rates sound like nothing to these guys. I mean, I have separate rates. If I want to do something. If I have somebody that wants to do magic and I want to make it work, I'll make it work.
But not so with corporate, but I think that's obviously a really big benefit. My favorite benefit is that I'm in bed by eight.
Corporate events end at six.
[00:36:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really good.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Dinner. You do some magic and you're in bed with your whatever food you stole from the event in your bed.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: About how long is a corporate event?
[00:36:59] Speaker A: So that's what's crazy is like it can be so different and we don't ever book by the hour, by the amount of time, anything like that. We always book, you have it for the night. So if you want me there doing walk around for 30 minutes, I'm there. It's gonna be the same price as if you want me doing walk around for an hour and then a stage show. Like those are the same because I have to come there and take that night and I can't use it for anything else.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: If they don't, if the, if the company doesn't know, they just know they want something, how do they, how do you walk them through the different options of what they could, what they should do?
[00:37:35] Speaker A: I think it starts with, we start at what is the event. So if it's a cocktail party or something like that, we're always going to try to talk them into close up. We're going to always try to talk them into walk around. Because the goal of the cocktail hour is kind of, kind of taking into consideration what is the goal of that meeting or that thing helps Us kind of make a direction because when you have a cocktail party, really what you want to do is bring people together, give them something to talk about. There's a lot of awkwardness often in people that aren't that socially, socially viable. Always the, the first people at a walk around event are always the worst. I mean you will get no reactions from them because those are the people that showed up on time, which great if you do, but they're never the coolest.
I, I'm always on time, so like I'm, I'm gripping myself in on that. But so, so we will, we will try to steer them. So if somebody said we're having a cocktail party, we want you to do a stage show, we will very much try to talk them in the direction of what we know. Because if it isn't successful, that does come back to us, even if it's what the event planner wanted.
So kind of starting with that is tell, tell us more about what your event looks like and let's figure out where we can incorporate magic. And I think the only times we kind of push it in directions that aren't what they brought up is one if we think it's just the dynamics different and for some reason they don't see it or if we see an opportunity such as they're doing an auction. And like we have magicians who have auctioneer experience, so figuring out where we can kind of incorporate it. But, but, but the corporate. I mean, I mean I've done six hours of walk around and I've done 30 hour, 30 minutes of walk around and you show up at those 30 minute ones and you do it and you're like, so that was it, we're done. And you're like, I mean it is. And it's really weird, but it is.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: What's the craziest thing that's happened to you at a corporate event that you can talk about?
[00:39:40] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a difference.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Yeah, you gotta be able to talk about it.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: I mean, I don't know. Craziest. Probably like the most cringe was I was doing an event in Cincinnati and it was like a black tie gala. Everybody is in there fanciest. And this was like people were donating lots of money for this. I mean it was tickets, I think were 2000 a seat at least. And so they're doing all of their things. They've gone through the auction and they come out and they say, hey, we want to show you some of our people who have benefited from this. Oh, actually I have one More. That might be more cringe, but we'll. I'll do both.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I want them all.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Okay. So they were like, we're going to do a live fundraising right now. So up on this screen right here, we're going to try to get to $250,000. So on everybody on your table, there's a QR code. You can scan, you can make a donation. And so up on the screen, everybody's name is popping up with how much they donated. So you're feeling this weird peer pressure of all the people around you, seeing what they're donating. And the number is going up and up. And they have these kids on stage with this really crappy pottery. They've made like, you know, the, like, really bad painted, like, kids stuff. Like, if you donate like 10,000, you get this. It's like, okay, we're now pandering. But it was.
They're standing there like, you're like, can you please donate, like, to save my, like, pancreas? And so they're sitting there and suddenly it jumps from 234,000 to 734,000.
And we all just kind of look around like, what. What just happened? And. And kind of some of the people were like, well, sometimes people will leave their estate to it. So maybe this was like a dramatic way. And so the lady on stage is like, you have no idea how much this is going to help kids. This is incredible. Somebody bought this, like, they start naming things that they can buy with this money. And then one of the people runs up and they're like, they meant to put 5,000, but it entered as 500,000.
And so you just see all of these faces drop. So these, these people, not only did they, like donate $5,000, which is incredibly generous, but they also have like, the worst shame hangover ever.
So it's like you. The next day, you come home feeling like an absolute doofus and your $5,000 for. So that sucked. But it was funny to be standing in the back of the room for.
I will say, I think some of the corporate issue is like, there can be some tone deafness, obviously. I mean, a lot of it is pomp and circumstance. But I think I was doing an event at the Four Seasons in and it was to celebrate investments in affordable housing. And they were doing a week stay with at a group rate. Like, there's no way, like, the rooms are still a thousand dollars. So you're putting up like 250 people for a week at the Four Seasons for a thousand dollars, putting on an event to celebrate affordable housing. And they had a woman come up on the grand lawn overlooking the ocean to like, who, who had experienced the affordable housing to come and talk about how grateful she was to that. And I was just like, this is the most toned. I'm like, do you know how many houses or whatever could be built with like the amount that you spent this week? So that, to me just like always sticks out in like, cringe.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah. That's why there's some other corporate magicians I've talked to. They really enjoy it. The hours are great.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: It's great. And it's great because it allows like the room to kind of be more playful with your other magic and kind of things. Like, if I try something and it doesn't work, I know that it's not really impacting my ability to pay my rent.
So that definitely gives me a lot of freedom to mess up a lot, which is something that I was actually talking to a friend the other day.
And I'm so lucky to have been raised around all of the people that I have. And I never really had the opportunity to be bad because I was at that high level. I didn't want feedback from all of them. And yeah, I just didn't have the space. And I think that's a little bit of what standup gave me, was like the space to flop without anybody who I possibly knew seeing it.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Oh, what was your, what was your style of comedy?
[00:44:07] Speaker A: I mean, so much of it was crowd, crowd work, very dry, I think. I mean, I have a New York Jew sense of humor, but I think when I started integrating magic, I have a friend, Harrison Greenback, he's a stand up and magician in the city in New York. And he had told me early on that he would write his comedy and then figure out how magic would fit into it rather than vice versa. And I think that really was significant. Not in that I write jokes because, I mean, I've. I've tried to script things before and I, I can't sell anything that sounds scripted. Like I'd be a terrible actor. I was.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: I understand that. That's the same way I feel. I have a hard time writing stuff.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: Down and it sounds, I just, I don't know how to sound genuine when it's, when it's written.
And so I think the, so kind of the figuring out the kinds of jokes and directions you want to go in and figuring out how does the trick work in. And I do think that pretty much any trick you can impact, you can affect the Messaging to be whatever you want. I mean, I think there are very few tricks that we can't end up in teamwork or community, you know, I mean, wherever you want it to end up.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: Is there anything that stands out to you that you learn from some of, you know, such heavy hitters that you grew up around.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: Be yourself doing magic rather than putting on a magician act. I see so many magicians and I was talking to a young magician the other day, just kind of almost switch voices. It's like, okay, hey, hey, I'm dinner. So now we're going to like, just, just talk like you normally talk and do a magic trick.
And so I think the incorporating it more casually is what I think the really successful magicians can and do. Just don't act too self important, which I think is a really, really big pitfall for a lot of magicians.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: What do you envision for the future of magic and entertainment?
[00:46:15] Speaker A: So this is interesting. Yeah, I like that question. There's a great calculator trick that so many people do. I do it all the time. I love it. It ends up with a number that for me it matches date and time. It can end up in different ways. And three years ago that trick was the one that everybody wanted to see over and over and over. And I remember predicting then that there was going to be a shift for that. Because as much as it's incredible, we all understand that technology is kind of incredible. So as much as we don't know how it's done, we are able to make the mental leap that technology is pretty insane.
So I really think that across all platforms, I mean every job, everything, it's really going to be the things that demonstrate humanity that kind of survive. So I think one, the more that people infuse humanity and their interpersonal and don't just like go through the moves, but also I think we're gonna see kind of like more, more focus on the people that have really great handling and stuff like that. Like I've found that really simple sleight of hand. I always start with one trick that's just three cards and it's just a series of moves. But it's just to be just, just to demonstrate there's really nothing else that could be happening. And I think that I've seen such a shift over the last few years of how much people appreciate the things that are really more skill based than conceptually they can't understand.
And I think, I think again, the more, the more impersonality infused, that's what people are looking for at this point, because we have so much, everyone feels lonely. Everyone feels confused and sad. And so the more that people can see themselves in you, and you can use that magic to empower people.
When I do kind of programs, I always bring pendulums because it's a way of demonstrating the strength of our own minds. And I think that I always say, I don't want to be a figure, that I'm magical and you're not. It's like, no, you. Magic is my version, and you have your version. And we all need to share our. Our versions.
And so, I mean, I mess with the audience a lot, and I think that's what kind of gets.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: You love it.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: So I think. I think that back to what you were saying of what. What will be the shift in the future is the things that make people feel more connected to. To each other. And if we can one facilitate that for the other people and make it not as much about us. I mean, one of my favorite things ever to do is I don't know how much you perform, but when you're doing walk around, there's always at least one or two people who are just like, follow you all night.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: All right. For anyone interested in magic, whether they want to perform or simply enjoy, any last words of advice or encouragement, I.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Mean, I'd say, I think overall, we're seeing some really great shifts in magic from what a lot of the traditional forms are. I think there's still a lot of focus on the right and wrong ways to do things, and a lot of it is perpetuated by a lot of the older figures in magic.
And sometimes it feels like a little bit of a way to kind of hold on to it and keep it for themselves. Because there is a lot of magic that takes a lot of handling and is really great. And that tends to be the things we learn first. I mean, we learn cups and balls and stuff like that. And those aren't particularly easy tricks. And if you master them, I mean, they can take an incredible amount of skill and kind of remembering that those tricks are amazing. But if you find some tricks that get a great reaction and aren't as hard, that doesn't make them any less of an incredible trick. And so taking the time to work on the tricks that are harder that you really want to work with, but then also mixing in tricks that don't take a lot of thinking, because those are the tricks where you're going to find your own voice. Because if you don't have to think about the movements and the tricks, that's when you get the opportunity to create bonds with the people and find jokes and find opportunities for that. Whereas when we're only focused on really complicated handling, you're not going to be able to really engage with the audience because it's all focused there. So I think one, if you. For people getting into it, if you hear that's not how it's done, like, don't, don't listen. Just annoying. And it's from somebody that doesn't like that people are doing it another way because that's not a thing. And that the classics in magic are great and it's important to learn all of the history and the classics. And if a magic trick is good and it works, the difficulty kind of is secondary.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Yes, that was. You're right. But like about, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to do crazy knuckle busters to have a great show.
[00:51:24] Speaker A: And I think all of those classics are super important and stuff, but I don't think that they should be enough to keep you from getting out there and performing. And I think it's great to pair the really complicated stuff with the less complicated stuff. I mean, there's the trick with like a three and a half card, right? To me, it's so silly, so good. It's. But I mean, the way that I pose it, I just say, so being a magician, most people have seen a magician find their card. Most people haven't seen a magician find half their card. And I've already made the three and a half prediction. To me, that's a really silly and kind of stupid trick. And yet the reactions are just as good as when I do a really complicated slice. So to me, it can feel like little like, oh, do you know how much work that one took? But like, they walk away being like, but how did you have a half on your card and you're like printing.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: It's so good, though. Dana Hirsch, thank you so much for coming on with us. I learned a ton and thank you so much for sharing your life and your work with us. Tell the people where they can find you.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: So I make it hard to find me intentionally not to be elusive, just to be have something for myself. I do have a website, danaherz productions.com but follow me on Instagram danaherz with three z's and we can bring magic into literally any event. That's probably my strength, is finding a way to incorporate magic into more things than you would ever want or need.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Sounds amazing. And we will definitely do that. Thank you so much. And all you.
Thank you so much. This has been Magicians Workshop.
