The Legacy of Magic with Jeff Corn | S01E10

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, I'm Jeff Korn, and you're here watching the Dr. Todd Magicians Workshop podcast. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Today we have Jeff Korn, professional magician. I can't wait to hear more about him. Friend of the show, Eric Casey, introduced me, and he was more than happy to come in and talk about magic. So welcome Jeff Korn. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having me on. This is going to be awesome. I'm really excited to do this. [00:00:42] Speaker B: What. What makes you so excited, Jeff? [00:00:44] Speaker A: I get to talk about me. I think that's pretty much it. Like, I've got a healthy amount of narcissism that I think that most artists need to have to. To thrive in this world. So, yeah, it's going to be awesome. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Absolutely. Okay. I knew. I knew you were the right one. [00:00:59] Speaker A: You should also know I chose today to get my workout in for the decade or so. It's been many months, so now I'm kind of pumped up. Right. I got a lot of energy. Awesome. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, let's waste that by sitting on our butts now. Exactly what was today? [00:01:17] Speaker A: Leg day today. That's exactly what it was. That's why I'm sitting down. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:22] Speaker A: I don't think I'm going to be able to stand back up. [00:01:24] Speaker B: No. I used to work out with a Navy Seal. That was a huge error. £25. That's the best shape of my life. I could pick you and someone else up and run a mile. So I do want to ask, who is Jeff Korn? For people that don't know. [00:01:38] Speaker A: I grew up in Florida. I had no magic connections. Somebody showed me some magic, you know, my uncle. It was the same store everyone has, right. I was 6 or 7 years old, and he showed me a card trick, right? And then, you know, we're 30 years later, and, like, it's. It's. I've been able to do some pretty cool stuff because of it. In Florida, though, there was nobody around. So until I was in high school, I'd never met anyone else who had any interest in. In magic. And I got really lucky because right after I left, after I graduated high school, I joined the Air Force and went to New Mexico. Well, a month before I got to New Mexico, the magic shop opened. You know, so I walked in as they were unpacking boxes, and I just had this, you know, this interest that was, like, a real love for it, but it was always, you know, like, here's my book collection. And at the time, I mean, this was, you know, what, 25 years ago? So my book collection was things like the Mark Wilson course, some of the Hugurt books. Right. The classics, but the classics, you know, I didn't have access to a lot of the video products that were out at the time. I didn't know about, you know, Internet magic community. [00:02:57] Speaker B: What year was this? [00:02:58] Speaker A: This is probably right around turn of the century, like 2000, 2001. [00:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah. There wasn't anything. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, so I remember when, you know, penguin magic and illusionist popped up on the scene, and it's just, you know, suddenly it's a whole new world. I'll tell you fun story for me is the first real exposure to sleight of hand card magic that I ever had was a video called Impossible Card Magic from Ray Cosby, which, if you ever watch the video, it is some of the most difficult sleight of hand. But I come in knowing, you know, the bear, just the basics. And I'm watching this guy do things that are stunning, and you almost put it aside, like, oh, I don't think I'm qualified for this stuff. So I had that. That nice. Like, I, I. I figured out my. My dunning Krueger bell curve changed that day. Right. Like, I figured out how much. I don't know. Whenever I saw that, I thought I was pretty cool. You know, in my high school, everybody wants to come over and watch me do whatever. But anyway, so I moved to Albuquerque, and I just so happened to, you know, start working with this magic shop. They had a theater right next door. It was built into an old fire station. So the whole. All of the barracks were converted into retail spots. So we had these huge rooms. We had, you know, this big theater that I got to watch some really good performances from some unknowns. But we did a lot of lectures. I got to learn, like, firsthand from some really cool people. But a handful of them were lifelong performers that just had information they were willing to throw at me. You know, if I was willing to pull out a notebook and write, they would. They would keep talking. You know, I mean, you sound like. [00:04:51] Speaker B: This sounds like this was on a base. This wasn't, like, on. [00:04:54] Speaker A: No, no, this was. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:55] Speaker A: This was about three miles off base in. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Okay. So easy to get to Albuquerque. [00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the. It's called the Magic Juggler Shop or the Magic and juggling Shop, eventually. And it was three miles from Earth. I'm sorry. Three blocks from the college campus. So every day we had college students walking by. It was in the bar district, you know, the arts area. So there were always people to perform for. We'd go out and street perform. They would close off the street, you know, three or four times a year. And we, I'd get to go out there and practice that. I had a theater I could do, you know, shows for 30 people in do, you know, bring a table, do a stand up show. Literally anything I wanted to work on, it was right there. The magic world was at my fingertips. You know, it was, you know, it was incredible. And then once I got out of the Air Force, I moved to Las Vegas and it was the same thing. You know, I got to do some cool shows and met all of my heroes. I, you know, man, like, I think that I was exposed to the best magicians that were alive. And then once the pandemic hit, everything kind of kind of shifted. I moved back east, so now I'm in Jacksonville. I spent a few years in Georgia. A few hours outside of Atlanta, or a couple, about an hour and a half outside of Atlanta. A few hours outside of Atlanta and you're not in Georgia anymore. But yeah, you know, so, like, I've been all over. I've gotten to see magic shops that were, you know, designed for magicians. I got to see the ones that were designed for tourists. I worked in the magic shops. In every magic shop in Vegas. I worked in one point or another, you know, so it's, it's always kind of been the lifelong pursuit. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow, that's, that's wild. So since we're, since we're going down that road, so you get to, you get, you get to Vegas. What, what makes you want to you go to Vegas with the intent on performing? [00:06:51] Speaker A: No, actually, you know, we were talking to anxiety issues, right? My anxiety. I didn't want to be a professional performer. I worked on computers, right. I, I was doing computer science. I was cool with that. I really enjoyed it. And then when I got out of the Air Force, I was like, well, that's obviously what I'm going to do because that's where the money is and I can just keep doing my shows on the side. And it just didn't pan out. So the opportunity to move to Las Vegas came up and I'm like, well, I'll just go do computer science in Las Vegas. Right. I still wasn't thinking about the possibility of performing. And I'm a terrible businessman. I've learned over the years. So my enthusiasm goes into the creative side of it, I think. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Got it. [00:07:35] Speaker A: I love performing. I hate getting people to give me money to perform. You know, like, I got to figure that part of it out. So I never thought about full time performing. I went out there with that idea and then I didn't really, like. I realized that my love, my enthusiasm wasn't in computers and I threw mine away. Just got rid of it, right? Like, it's just gone. And. Okay, I went without for a few years. Years, you know, and I actually, I had a. At the time, I only had a laptop, and it had like something was. Was crashing on it. And it's like, I'm gonna have to break this apart and now learn another aspect of computer science. And. And I think I ended up like, oh, well, there's my bow. And I really like archery. Let me practice that hobby. And I think I should shot art. You know, shot arrows through it. I'm pretty sure that was. That was my. My method of disposing of it. I was so frustrated. I was like, oh, this is perfect. I'm gonna combine different h. So I got rid. I was done. I was so burned out on computers that I wanted nothing to do with it for many years. And when that happened, I started, you know, I jumped into the performing world. But I kind of lucked into a lot of that too. I was hanging out with, you know, really like, the knowledgeable people, all the people I wanted. I wanted to go to Las Vegas to learn magic more so than to do that, right. A big part of it was two people in particular were Paul Vigil and Johnny Thompson. You know, Johnny Thompson is just the greatest magician to ever live, right? He's just the most knowledgeable guy that I've ever spent any time with. And I used to watch his. The L and L videos that he. He filmed, you know, 98, probably. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:32] Speaker A: And it's the best magic I had ever learned. It was, you know, exactly the kind of stuff that appealed to me. So I, you know, the more I thought about it, and then when the opportunity to go to Vegas, I was like, oh, this is perfect. You know, I knew Paul. Paul was a student of. Of Johnny's. And I'm like, well, this is, you know, why wouldn't I go? I was 24 at the time. You know, I had just gotten out of a relationship in New Mexico, right? I was engaged. And that didn't work out, and I didn't want to stay there. There were no real opportunities. The magic shop had changed ownership while I was gone, so I didn't know any. You know, my scene had kind of had moved on. So going to Vegas, it was really. It was just to continue my growth, you know, and I just happened to, to jam with a magician that was asked for a referral and that's what happened. And that got me into the, the Vegas Magic Theater at the Gold Coast Casino in Vegas. That was a three month run. But that got my name in with another guy. Just so happened to hear about me through that. Oh, he must be good. He's doing this thing over here with, you know, Paul Stone, the guy that did that, produces some of the, you know, some amazing magic shows. So if I'm working with that guy, I must be right. And that's the way the magic world works, right? And it just snowballed. And for the last six years, I was in Las Vegas. I had a small room at the, on the edge of the Grand Canyon, and I just got to hang out and do magic for tourists all day. [00:11:11] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:11:12] Speaker A: I can't beat it, you know, I. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Mean, that is, that is how, that's not just how magic works. That's how everything works. I know about Johnny Thompson. I have his book. That's that one of the books that he signed. And it's just like, so it's such a good book. But, and I know he was, he helped Penn and Teller a lot with their show. I know that he's amazing. I read his book. But for people that don't know the importance of history of magicians, how one magician kind of work leads to another, leads to another. First of all, how important is it to, as a hobbyist or even as a professional to know who these magicians are? And then let's talk about who Johnny Thompson was, because you had firsthand knowledge, like how important it is to know who Dai Vernon is. What does it mean? Is it important for me as a, as a hobbyist? Why should I know who that is? [00:12:06] Speaker A: I think it is. I definitely think it is, you know, and if you were to compare it to any other art form, you know, you can learn to play a guitar without knowing who Eddie Van Halen is, right? But if you really want to get good, you're gonna find out who this guy is eventually. So you might as well speed up the process and look for the greats. You know, you don't want to start and like work your way up. We're at a point now where all the information is literally, you know, we can find out who we need to look for. So I think at this point, the information is so immediately available that you just owe it to yourself to know who these people are. Just for, you know, myself, but I've always Been fascinated with the history of magic. I think the, you know, I'm a big fan of the standing on the shoulder of giants philosophy. All of this stuff builds and, you know, it builds off of what came before. But we also, you know, if you don't have that foundational knowledge, which is what a lot of the stuff, like the, you know, Divernon at this point, Di Vernon's material is foundational knowledge. His Cups and Balls routine, if you're interested in the plot of the little ball is going to disappear and end up under the little cup, you need to learn the Divernon routine. You know, you're not going to perform it that way, probably, but you should at least. So researching these people also tells you. It exposes you to their contributions, but it also exposes you to a lot of other information. You know, if you know, Divernon, that will bring you to the Revelations videos, and then it's going to open your eyes to, like, Michael Amar and Gary Lett, Steve Freeman in that situation. But also they mention, you know, Jarrow and Leipzig, all these other magicians from the past that are just the materials there and it's hidden. Right. So I think studying and, like, knowing who these people are makes it easier for you to. To track down whatever information it is that, you know, it's like, it's just. It's just good studying, I think. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Right. Like, if you're doing cups and balls, you're doing Divernon's Cups and balls. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Probably a variation on it, but you're probably doing one of his moves. I don't. I don't think I've ever seen a Cups and Balls that I haven't seen a move that he. That he first didn't. [00:14:39] Speaker A: I think Vernon in particular is a great example because of how much he did. Right. Vernon was a fantastic link because at the time frame that he was doing it, he, you know, Marlo was writing down all the card magic in Chicago, you know, but Vernon was. Was traveling all over and trying to track down gamblers more often than not. But also the magician. So he was also. He was compiling these ideas from different areas. Right. And because of that, we have that information. That's why. So to bring this around to Tom Sony, Johnny was a student of Vernon's, you know, and Vernon had dozens of students. You know, if you. Depending on what you want to, you know, consider a student. Right. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. What you want to define as. Yeah. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Like, I have a hard time calling myself a student of Tom Sony. I hung out with him a few times. Right. We Weren't close. He, he called me a couple of times. You talk about the coolest thing that's ever happened. Your phone goes off at work and you look down and it says Tom Sony. Like I'm either in trouble or this is really going to be awesome. You know, like something's up. So like we weren't overly close but like he taught me some stuff, he tipped me to some stuff. But like do I would I want to call myself a student or like it feels weird, right? Because I, I think that the student teacher relationship is a little, you know. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it depends on how narcissistic you're feeling that day. Like or, or if you have, you know, if you're doing a website. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Tomorrow. I'm a student of Tom Sony. Today though right now I'm, I'm you know, a little hesitant to say that out loud but no. So Johnny though, Johnny had the coolest life of anyone that I've ever heard. Right. Sometime in the 50s I think it was, he was 13, runs away from home, joins the circus. Right out of Chicago goes dope, why not, right? Skipstown joins the circus. The guy, he wants to be like he would, Johnny would tell a story of, you know, I bought this book to learn to cheat at cards because I wanted to, I wanted to be a gambler and I, I figured out eventually there's really no place for a 12 year old card shark. And because of that I had to adapt, you know, so he would pick up the, the other skills, he would learn the magic, he would do whatever else he could do. But when he would go to the circus, the guy wouldn't need a magician, he wouldn't need a 12 year old magician, but he would need a 12 year old sword swallower. Sure, I can hire a 12 year old so I know how to swallow swords. And then Johnny went home and learned to swallow swords, you know, like he was that guy, he just, he needed to do it so he did it. Really inspiring, right? This is like, I don't know how you know how big the circus was in, in the 50s, but you know, I'm a comic book fan, right. And I know that in the 40s making a kid an acrobat in the circus was kind of acceptable and nobody thought twice about it so I assumed that they were still pretty prevalent. I went to a circus in the 90s, but you know. Yeah, but John like he learned every trade in the circus and then he goes off and he starts learning from the magicians and then he starts compiling all this information and he becomes the link between the, the, the that era. I don't want to say the golden era, but like between this previous era of magicians and us. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:28] Speaker A: You know, you mentioned Penn and Teller, but Criss angel and Lance Burton, every magician that you can possibly. If. If the magician you're thinking of now doesn't or didn't consult with John, they consult with somebody who did, you know, and I. When you go to Vegas and you go to the magic club and people start talking, oh, yeah, Johnny tipped me to this. Oh, Johnny showed me this thing, you know, and sometimes it would be as simple as like, oh, you need to go read this book. And then he would leave, you know, and you're like, okay, well that's what we're gonna do. Because the Godfather told you to go read the book. [00:19:06] Speaker B: If Tom Cini tells you to read a book, you Tom Sony or Tomcini? [00:19:11] Speaker A: Tom Sony. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Tom Sony. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. He's the Polish prodigitator. Prestidigitator. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Nice. [00:19:18] Speaker A: But Johnny, John's wife Pam was the assistant. She's the, I mean, the prototype, but also the pinnacle. You know, she was just, she played off of him so well. The act was one of the best in history. They were, you know, they had retired it and they would break it out occasionally for, you know, the magicians, just for the boys. But then Teller started doing it. Teller did it exactly as Johnny did it because they didn't want to step on the memory of how legendary. I really think that Johnny's may be the most important magician of the last 50 years. You know. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Do you know how, how it worked when somebody would go on to Penn and Teller for us, would he. Would you tell Johnny what the trick is? And then he would tell them if you fooled him or not. Okay. Because I, Yeah, I knew that he was kind of a producer, like he was the consultant. [00:20:20] Speaker A: But yeah, it was Johnny and Michael close and they would be there. I believe the deal is that they're. That they've got like a two way mic so they can hear Penn and Teller discuss and then they make the final call. Whether or not it was. It's like whether they got them. But I never performed. I worked backstage for a day. That was cool. I got to see how, you know, how all of the stuff, you know, like what the chaos behind the scenes to, to make that show what it is, that was awesome. But I think my anxiety, whenever it came up to whether or not I wanted to perform, I know that. I just think my anxiety got in the way I was, like, now, you know what? I'm good. I'm too cool for that. [00:20:59] Speaker B: And I still think you should. I think you should, like, everyone. You and Eric are the only people I'm talking to that aren't. Aren't going. You got. It's almost like a rite of passage. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Some great magic for it, man. Like, he's. [00:21:10] Speaker B: He's ready to go. I don't even think he needs to practice. [00:21:12] Speaker A: I was telling him because whenever we first met, right? Like, I just don't. I don't. I've been out of the magic, the. The. The marketplace scene for a while, you know, so, like, I keep an eye on the books that come out, but I don't know the new tricks. And one day I just started seeing his. It ended up being his, but it was the. The perfect oil and water. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:34] Speaker A: Everybody was doing it was in all these reels and then started talking. And I'm hanging out with him one day, and he's like, oh, here, do you have one of these? And he pulls out one and hands it to me, and I'm like, oh, that's yours. And immediately I started laughing because I was like, man, I didn't realize you're responsible for, like, the Instagram trick. Wherever I saw five people, you know, throw it in their reel. It's just. I think Eric's got some great magic for. For Penn and Teller, you know, I think that just. That should happen. Yeah, I'm sure I do too. I probably have something that would be fun to do, but if I were gonna go on, I. Man, like, I. My standards for my own self, I think would be. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker A: Have you ever been to the Magic Castle? [00:22:21] Speaker B: Yeah. No. But I want to talk to you about the Magic Castle because you performed at the Magic Castle. [00:22:26] Speaker A: I. I have been very lucky. I've performed there twice, and I don't know how they let me do that. I. That was. I mean, I always made the joke that, you know, I don't want to perform at the Castle. I want to perform at the Castle twice. Because anybody can lie to the right number of people and convince them that you deserve to be there. But, like, coming back a second time, man, that means that they saw your show and they're like, all right. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Yeah, you belong. [00:22:54] Speaker A: And that. That was so cool. I got to work the first week that I was there, I performed in the close up room opposite of Doc Docherty, who is one of my absolute best friends. We met. [00:23:07] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:23:08] Speaker A: We met the day before Los or. Well, two or three days before Las Vegas shut down because of the pandemic before the airport shut down and everything he had. He had done the castle. He flew to Las Vegas to do a lecture at the. What the. Denny and Lee's magic shop had become the top hat and wand magic shop after Denny and Le had dropped off of it. Right. And so the new owner had taken it over, and we were hosting the lecture with Doc Doherty. He's a magician from North Carolina. And Doc just wanted to come out and hang out in Las Vegas. He wanted to meet a couple of the guys there. And same reason that I, you know, it was. It was his. His pilgrimage to. To the. The magic capital. And Doc and I hit it off and then I dropped him off at the airport. He flies out of town 12 hours later. The airports are shut down for however long they were shut down. And. And then I moved out. I moved east, right. So Doc and I were five hours apart. We would see each other, we chat all the time. So just became one of my best friends. So the first time I perform at the coolest place in the world, I'm doing it opposite of that guy. And then I got to go back a year later and do it again, and I would have gone back. I, you know, if I go back, I want to do it, you know, before I approach them to bring me back. I want to have something that I think is new and deserving of such a great experience. You know, I don't want to go and, like, repeat myself. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just. I know that there are 52 weeks in a year and there are only so many slots and there are so many great performers. So I don't want to go out there and, like, not, you know, not put all of myself into it. So, yeah, I'll call them whenever I have, you know, whatever. Like, I'm like, all right, this is it. Like, now I know who I am now. This is my artistic, you know, then. Then I'll be back there. Yeah, but I got to do it twice. And that was the goal, right? [00:25:20] Speaker B: So nice. [00:25:22] Speaker A: That was my. I mean, one of the coolest things ever. There's the castle is. Is unlike anything else that I've seen, magic wise, because there's. So that's. Magic is the purpose, you know. So over here, there's close up over here there's, you know, a guy, you know, doing something with boxes. Over here there's, you know, another room with 70 people, whatever. You know, there's different sizes and different Types and philosophies and style, everything. It's all, you see it all. And I just, I got to hang out there quite a few times because my friends would be performing, you know, and whenever I was in Vegas, it was a four hour drive. So I just cruise up and down, you know. The best thing I was doing my shows at the Grand Canyon on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, right. So I was out of town three days a week. Those other four days a week, man, I could, you know, get back and forth. I would be driving to LA as everybody in LA is trying to get to Vegas. So I'm beating traffic both directions. It was the greatest situation ever. So I'd get to go down there and hang out. You, you know, and I became friends with people that work at the Castle. So I'd go down there, I'd see my, see my pals. Mike Pichota is one of the best magicians, one of the greatest people in the world. He's the house bartending magician there forever. So I get to go and just hang out with him if I've got nothing else, you know. So I would always have something to do. Right. I can go and Billy Goodwin's the librarian if the Magic Castle, right. Bill Goodwin is, that's a great job. Yeah. And Bill Goodwin is, is just this encyclopedia, especially of card magic. But he was a student of Larry Jennings, who was a student of Vernon's, you know. So Bill, if I ever want to know anything, I just, hey man, what should I look up? And he would just give me something, you know, so I could go and chat with him and catch up with, with that guy that, you know, that I've been lucky enough to, been introduced to. So the Castle, if there's something you're interested in, magic wise, you're gonna find someone there who wants to make you better at it. So it's just, it's the, the best place to hang out when you are. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Developing a show, any show, but especially a show for the Castle. How do you design an act for something like the Castle? How long do you get for a Castle act? [00:27:58] Speaker A: The castle is 20 minutes. It's a 20 minute slot. And then, and they keep that pretty tight. I've seen, I've seen people actually, you know, when you, if you go over and you're not a certain caliber of, of absolute legend. I've, I've seen them, you know, like make it very obvious, you know, like they clear up that, so it doesn't happen twice. But you know, the, they 20 minutes because the People are leaving your show and they're going to the one upstairs that they actually got, you know, the. The big show that's on the marquee that's got the. You know, that's the one. One that the people from the outside that aren't members, their tickets are for that show. You know, they just get to check out these other ones. So, like, they're very. They want to make sure, you know, they're very professional about it, but they're very professional about, you know, so the 20 minutes as far as the. The design. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Not a lot of time. [00:28:50] Speaker A: It's not, but it's. It's interesting, right, because I. So I got really lucky. My. My shows at the Grand Canyon, I mentioned them earlier. There was a place, it's called the Skywalk. It was the Hualapai reservation. The. The native tribe there. They have a giant glass bridge that hangs out of. Do you know what I'm talking about? [00:29:15] Speaker B: I know what you're talking about. That gives me anxiety, talking. I've seen pictures. I was like, oh, yeah, that's never happening. [00:29:20] Speaker A: I was working there the day after someone took a selfie picture and wanted to get a better picture of the giant hole behind them. The most famous hole in the world behind them. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:35] Speaker A: And it wasn't big enough for the angle, so he took a step back and didn't work. So he took another step back and then he backed himself off the side of the Grand Canyon. I was there the next day and had to, like, deal with those questions. That was fun. That was a good one. Because, you know, they could say, like, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But this was 70 or 100 miles outside of Vegas. So people talked about it. People talked about that one a lot. They were very curious about the guy that walked off the side of the Grand Canyon. So I was doing 15 minute sets, you know, and if I really liked my audience, I would do 20, 25. But there was another group ready to come in. So the entire show, you know, every weekend, it was me mix and matching all of my pieces. So I had a pretty good idea of the flow of the show at this point just to improvise it, you know, at the Canyon, all of the audiences were, you know, they didn't know each other. Some of them would be a tour group, but, you know, it's a tour bus. So it's 20 people. Sometimes it's only 10, you know, on a Jeep, but it'd be people from all over. So they didn't always speak the Same languages, you know, they would. So I had to be able to adapt on the fly. So I just. I put together a pretty solid set of material, and then I performed each one of those pieces 10, 15,000 times over the course of six years. And then someone said, hey, man, come do that for 20 minutes over here in our room. So it was like a cheat code, you know, I walked into the castle, and it was funny. One of my friends was in the audience, and he said that he saw the moment. He was. He saw watch my very first show. And he said he watched the moment that I was. I fell into place and became comfortable. Like, you could see it. Like, I go from my hands are shaking to, you know, I can't believe I'm here. Why did they let me in? They're about to know I'm a fraud, right? Like, I'm doing that, and then all of a sudden, the first beat hits, and everyone goes, ooh. And I'm like, oh, this is what I do. You know? And so I immediately, like, I hit the most comfortable I've ever been, because I just had a flashback to when I was wearing a cowboy costume and I was out there doing magic in a hat, you know, like, just having fun with tourists. So I got really lucky as far as structuring the show that I had so far ahead. But you. I know you wanted to keep this, you know, for, like, a little more open to the ever, but I want to show you something. The reason I'm saying. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah, get into it. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Give me one second to grab something. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah, go for it. [00:32:23] Speaker A: Sorry, I wasn't planning to make this an object lesson, but you gave me a chance to show off something I never get to show off. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:32:30] Speaker A: I am. You know, we were. We were making jokes about our, you know, the adhd, and earlier, I actually have quantifiable evidence of my adhd. Oh, okay. These are my magic note boxes. [00:32:48] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. [00:32:50] Speaker A: These are. I figured out back about 10 years ago or 12 years ago now that I really like composition notebooks. So because they're all the same size, I can get them. I can get them anywhere. I can pick up as many as I need. They all. They serve a lot of purposes. So each one of these. This is like seven. I've got seven of them here. They're not all magic. Right. But it's because I have to organize everything, because otherwise I lose track of all of my ideas. This notebook was specifically put together for material that I was going to perform at the Grand Canyon shows. And it's Evolved because I'm not doing that show anymore. Right? It's only, it's, I mean, you see, it's almost, it's just over halfway full. Right? But one of the things in here is how I develop my show. And this is about to become an explosion of color. That only happens because the 3M company only makes post it notes in certain colors. Right? But like I'm going to show you this, this monstrosity of how I develop my, my close up show. So this is my, this is my stand up set. This is how I, if I was trying to develop a stand up set. So over the last 10 years, every time I start to work on a new piece, if it's a minimalism piece, it gets this color of post it. If it's a coin trick, it's got this one. If it's a card thing, it uses, you know, I, I use different color pens. Like, this is pure ADHD just locked in. I am not going to be able to. Right. Like, I'm kind of proud. [00:34:30] Speaker B: So good. That's so good. [00:34:31] Speaker A: But like, at the same time, I also like this one. I think is, is, is commendable, but the close up set was from the Grand Canyon and so this is my close up set. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Holy. That is a lot of post it notes. [00:34:47] Speaker A: Right. And it's not stuff that I actively perform, but it's stuff that I have in the past, you know, so like I've, I've scripted this material out. I've, I've thought it through. I've at one point felt that it would fit into a shit. Right? It's, it's my potential material. But all of that stuff, the reason I use the post it notes though, this is just, this is my psychopathy at play, really. You know, the reason I use the post it notes is that I can look at this and go, oh, well, I've got a chop cup routine that I want to do. Well, where do I want to do it? Do I want to open? Do I want to move? So I can sit here and move all of this around and now I can just visualize because I've done all of these pieces so many times. So I can just imagine the last time I was on stage and then I can go, oh, what if I jump from this? Oh, I can't because that line conflicts, right? Like, oh, I say this line in this trick and I can't because if I don't say that line here, I can't do this line later. Right? Okay. And all of that can be I can. So that's how I build the show, is by having all of this stuff done 10 years ago. And then I just. I just keep tweaking it every time. So anytime I'm bored, if I'm sitting down and I'm daydreaming, I'm looking at this list and going, oh, I shouldn't do those two because that's got a transposition in it and so does that. Right? [00:36:10] Speaker B: Okay. [00:36:11] Speaker A: Yeah, things like that. Right. Like, whatever my criteria is, if I want everything to fit a theme, if I want everything to, you know, to be its own, whatever it is, if I've got that list, I can just immediately narrow it down. I can. I used to do it on a dry erase board. I just got tired of writing. You know, I've got three dry erase boards. They're just all over. Whenever I lived in Vegas, I had a wall down my hallway. It was, you know, 10, 12ft long. I bought dry erase, clean film, and taped it to the wall. I had a 12 foot long dry erase board. I wrote on it like it was something out of a beautiful. Only the stuff on it just was chaos. It wasn't. It didn't make sense to anybody, but, like, I knew what it meant, you. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Know, that would have been wild to walk in on and be like, yeah, I'm gonna leave now. [00:36:58] Speaker A: It. Yeah, you know, that's why you just. Oh, come this way. Quick, quick. [00:37:02] Speaker B: You know, ignore all this weird writing on the wall. [00:37:05] Speaker A: Let me cover that part up, because that's the part that's got the cool line in it I don't want you to know about, you know? [00:37:11] Speaker B: Yeah, ignore. Ignore the Elmsley count line. We're good there. Where do you find material that you want to add to it? Do you. Do you go on magic websites? Do you. Do you find books that nobody else knows? Like, how do you find your stuff? [00:37:26] Speaker A: So a lot of it, again, comes that luck. I worked at the magic shop and whenever I was there, I had to read the reviews and to see all, all the stuff. I would proofread, you know, I would check out all the new videos that came out. Like, I really. I just got to be a magic nerd. You know, I'm the salesman. I got to be able to talk about this stuff. So I. I did a lot of that. And then they would also, you know, I was full time active duty, Air Force. I didn't need money, so they just paid me in trade. They would just give me stuff, right? [00:37:58] Speaker B: Hell yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and because that's Just gonna work out. So, like, it just worked. It was, you know, so I, I have a, a book collection that is pretty, like, I'm pretty happy with it. You know, the one thing that I do regret is that, you know, it was early 2000s DVDs, real popular, and those were real sexy, right? So you'd see all the ads, Gotta get that. So the videos would come out and we would stock up and then it would sit there, you know, if somebody didn't buy it after a week or two, I would watch it again and go, oh, man, I really like that one trick. Like, oh, there's a cool slight here. I'm gonna want to reference that one. So I have three giant binders of DVDs, you know, and I find it a little harder to go back and watch those now because I've seen and learned the stuff from them that I liked at the time. And if I know there's something that I want to go and look up, it's easy for me to go and look it up. But it's not the same as it was, you know, 15 years ago, where I just pull one out and put it in hit play just to see. Just, you know, like, now I've got, I've got my, I'll pull my books out. Like, now I'm a little more concentrated, I think. I, I think part of it is that, you know, when you, you do it for a long time, you figure out what you like and then you figure out which ones you're going to do, you know. So I like a dozen versions of Triumph. Say, you know, Triumph's my favorite card tricks. It's the classic Vernon trick, you know, that people think about. And I love the plot. So I will experiment and study all of these different variations, right? Like, oh, this guy's got a cool version. That guy's got a cool. But like, I know the ones I'm going to do, you know, so I'm going to practice mine more than I'm going to sit down and try to tweak theirs. So I'll watch that. But then afterwards, so if I'm wanting to learn something now, like, if I have a drive for a new thing, typically, I think I've been starting with a plot first, right? Like, I have an idea more than, like, this is the trick that I really like, you know, I, I, that's what that notebook is, is like, these are the tricks that I like, you know, I really like the, the needles out of the mouth, right? I did it on stage, I'VE done three or four versions of it, you know, and I've only. I usually only do them once or twice. You know, I would do like a run with a burlesque group back, you know, however long ago, right. So I'm on stage and this weird crew. I'm only going to do this twice. Three times, right? And then it just goes back in the box. But then I learn a new version, you know, or I see something cool, like Scott Alexander would put out something. Ah, let me tweak that. Right? [00:40:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:48] Speaker A: So, like, if I see something that I think is cool, then, you know, that's like a version of something that I'm doing or if I'm researching. But that's. It's kind of weird. Like, at this point, I think things just kind of jump at me if it doesn't punch me in the face, you know, it's something that, you know, really appeals. I don't know that I. I go out of my way tracking them down from other people, you know, And I think the last time I did that, there's a book from Ben Hart, who is. I'm not even sure where he's from. I think he's Irish, but I'm probably wrong, but I can't even recall the name of the book. But it's the best book I've read in a long time. And because none of the magic in it was like anything I had ever seen. And. And I'd realized that, you know, a bunch of these stuff's kind of similar. Like, I like this guy's version. This guy. But a lot of it comes down to, like, the tweaks that we make, right? We all personalize the stuff. And I read that one and thought, man, this guy kind of went in a different direction. Like, he started with a concept and then said, what can I do with this? And. And then Rick Mao is just an amazing performer. He just really. Rick Mao, Actually, I don't talk about this guy. This guy's absolutely brilliant. He is a. I mean, he's a mentalist. But he doesn't like using the word mentalist. He's. He just put out a new video with Penguin. It's what really the thing that I think people should look at. Just go watch the demo video. If it appeals to you, it worth picking up. [00:42:24] Speaker B: It does. I. I cut my teeth on Penguin Live lectures. Those are the greatest things I've ever owned. [00:42:29] Speaker A: It's really like. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Because that's how I learn. I learn visually. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Johnny learned the egg back from Charlie Miller, who Learned the egg back from Max Molini, who was one of the ballsiest magicians to ever live, right? Like, that was the guy that would go into someone else's house and spread the cards on their very, very nice, exquisite, Whatever type of wooden tables. And then he would pull out a knife and start stabbing into the cards, into their amazing. The. The, you know, whoever. The governor's table, the king's table, stabbing into it and coming up. And he's got the card and the knife. He's blindfolded. He can't see anything. He's doing. Bam. Did I get one? No, you missed. You just stabbed a hole in the table. Oh, sorry. Hold on. Bam. And he would do it again, and at the end, like, he stabbed a bunch. He's got a bunch of holes in this destroyed table, and he's coming up and whenever someone goes, I mean, that was really impressive, man, but you just stabbed a bunch of holes in my table and it's ruined. He would just tap him and go, hey, it's okay. Just tell them that the fabulous Max Molini did it, and they'll love you. Imagine being that gutsy, like, just having that kind of confidence in yourself. I'm so good, I can destroy your stuff and you're gonna love me for it, right? Some of the coolest stories you'll ever hear are the Malini stories. And Johnny, you know, like, he performed that guy's material just the way he did it, because he was the direct link. That's why we were talking about how important Johnny is. Johnny was the link, you know, so Johnny had, You know, Johnny had hundreds of students like we were talking about earlier, but he had, like, a handful of students. Like, he had a handful of people that he would really. That he would. He would talk to. And, like, when you talk to those guys, you figure out he didn't, you know, he didn't hang out with. With the. The wimps, you know, Johnny knew. He pulled in the people he. Everybody. Like, he was the link. So it's. He was a huge loss. I really love that guy. I just. But I say that as someone who, like, you know, I talk about. I was his friend, but dude, you know, I knew him, but, like, dude, I idolized him. I was such a big fan. I used to watch his videos and, like, we would show him off in the magic shop. So, yeah, that's why I nerd out over John a little bit. Yeah, it's funny because, you know, John's student, Paul Vigilant, is one of my very best friends in the world. And like, it's one of those things, like, did I become friends with this guy because he's the great magician or because he wanted to be able to hang out with Johnny? [00:45:15] Speaker B: It can be both. It could be a little bit. [00:45:19] Speaker A: I just got really lucky because it would be, you know, 2:00 in the morning and I'd get a random phone call like, hey man, you need to come over. It'd be Paul, you need to come over. And I'm like, dude, it's two in the morning. You need to come over. And then that was the end of the phone call. And then I would show up and there's Johnny. Like I'm walking up the door, it's 2:30 in the morning and I'm like, why are you, you're 82 years old. Why are you here? You know? But he had been working with fool us all day, so he's a little, you know, burned out and wants to come and hang out with the boys. I got to be one of the boys. [00:45:54] Speaker B: You got to be one of the boys. [00:45:56] Speaker A: You talk about the coolest compliment that you'll ever get, right? Like one of your absolute heroes. Like you get called at 2 in the morning to come and jam, you know. [00:46:07] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Hey, show me that thing you do with the double lift. What, what are you talking about? Right? It's so cool. I really, I just, I tripped over backwards into some of the coolest situations that I just have no idea how I managed to pull off some of the, some of the, the friendships that I've managed to, to do. It's pretty cool, man. Magic's a fun world, you know, because it doesn't matter who you are. We're all magicians. So we all have that one thing. It's the, it's the one. So like in public with the non magicians, it's really good social proof, right? You, you meet people. If you're the guy that does the magic at the party, then people would like, it's, it's quite somebody. They would bring the crowd to you, you know, people would, it would be endearing. It would like, that was always cool. But when you get us alone, you know, even the celebrities are going to. We're just magic geeks, you know, we're just nerds. We just want to just. Hey man, what's that thing you do with the, the cards? You know, whatever. So that's the beauty of magic is it's, it's so good at connecting us with each other because we all know of situations like that where people like Johnny have existed. So we all want to be part of that next cycle. You know, I think that's a big part of it. We all know that the information can only be passed if we hang out and we jam and we share it with each other. So we all end up wanting to jam and share it with each other. You know, magic might get a little clicky from time to time and like, this group's over here and those guys are jerks and these guys are idiots and whatever, but, like, end of the day, we're all doing card tricks, so we deal with it, right? [00:47:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It's an incredibly niche, small group of people. When I started a podcast, I said, hey, I want to talk to magicians. And he said, I'm an amateur magician. And so many people are like, yeah, I'll talk to you. I'll talk like people you would never expect to talk. Just want to say, I love talking about magic. I'll talk about magic anytime, anywhere. This is what I wanted to bring to the world so people see how cool this group of people are and how open and how interesting and how entertaining. I mean, there's nothing like live magic. [00:48:26] Speaker A: From a performing standpoint. I've always compared it to like stand up comedy because it's the same thing. It's just like we've got a prop in our hands and we're not always trying to tell a joke, but like, it's the same thing. It's. It's us, an audience, a microphone, and honesty, right? We're lying, but we're being honest about it, you know, so it's like, I've always seen it kind of that way. Whereas, like with the guitar man, you can watch somebody get on stage and when they start playing, they go to a different world, you know, if you've ever seen, you know, I got to see the, you know, the heroes of rock or the gods of guitar or whatever they call those tours. I got to see one of those at the Hard Rock. Zack Wylde is my favorite guitarist, right, From Black Label Society. Plays guitar for Ozzy Osbourne. Yeah, he. I got to watch this guy throw the guitar over his head, do a six or seven minute solo. Just absolute speed metal rock out by himself. The only one playing, going nuts, walking a full loop around the. The hard Rock performing area, right? Incredible. But when you watch those guys or if you watch the videos, you know, like, they're in, they're in, in the zone, you know, they're in. They're in a space like that's their artistic creation is them, and they can create and share with the world whether you're in that room or not. But I don't think magicians can do that, right? Stand up. Comics can't do that. You know, a painter can paint that artwork and leave it there and we can appreciate it later. But magic's kind of a real time thing. You know, even comedy doesn't translate over long time. You know, long, like. No, the time. Like it's not the same. If you're in the room, it's funnier than if you're watching it on. On, you know, Netflix or wherever on tv. Magic's the same way. That's why you don't find. If you go online, it's funny, you know, nobody really. You don't see any, you know, of my performance videos, especially online. But, you know, people don't know a lot about my body of work because I don't put the videos of it out there. And it's because I don't think that the magic translates the. The way that I want it to through the camera. Because whether it's the. The timing on the joke or the misdirection or the whatever, right? Like, maybe this trick won't hold up to. To the rewind, but maybe I just don't want you to watch it again and have to re. Experience. I want you to have the memory that you had the first time you saw it and to take that with you. You. Right. Sometimes it's just a better experience if it's just me and you, you know, so. Or a good example. Classic car. This actually gets a little in depth. But there's a classic card trick called Anniversary Waltz. It is Doc Eason's, you know, most popular piece from any of his performing styles. The bar magic trick. You know, it's the thing you do for the couples. But the reason that it's so powerful is you. When I performed it, I've performed it twice in my life, right, because it's a special trick. And the first time I did it, it was a couple's 50th anniversary. I was 20 maybe. So I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do Anniversary Waltz. And I have the husband signed his name on a card and his wife signed her name on a card. And then at the end, the two cards, they find each other in the deck a couple of times, right? So as if these two people have found each other, you know, in their lives. And then with all of the grandchildren and the Children and everyone watching the couple holds hands around the two cards. And when they move their hands away, there's a single card there that's a double facer. As we know, it's a double facer signed on both sides should not exist. Absolutely impossible object, right, that they will keep forever. And when I performed it, 20, I'm an idiot. I have no idea what, how powerful magic can really be. And I look at the old lady, and she's here with her hand on her mouth. Mouth, right, and tears in her eyes. And then I look at the guy, this old army guy, big, stoic dude, and he's got tears pouring down his face. And then I'm looking around the room and I'm realizing that his grandkids are in the same spot, right? And it's the first time, you know, one of the only times really, if I'm being honest with us, with everyone. It's one of the only times I've ever really pulled that emotional response from someone. But when I saw it, you know, it's like, oh, man, that's pretty powerful, right? But that was the day. I mean, that immediately I realized, like, okay, that's a. That's a different level of a, you know, different caliber. Since then, I've seen other people do that. I've watched one of my heroes is Armando Lucero, and I watched him do his, his coin matrix, the. The four coins and cards. I watched him perform that live up close for non magicians that were just in the restaurant. And then no magical knowledge or experience or exposure. And then I look at them and they're crying because of the emotional experience from watching a coin trip. Because he is amazing. I was 20 and an idiot, and I kind of backed into this amazing situation because of this amazing thing that I can't take credit for, right? But I can, like, I remember. So I don't think that that experience if, If I showed a video of that exact performance and we, we played it, right? Now, I don't think anybody at home watching or you or even me would look at it and think anything more than that's pretty good trick. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Well, I'm dead inside. So. [00:54:29] Speaker A: See, and that's. It happens to the best, right? That's why we fake it with me. Magic and smiles, healthy dose of narcissism. I told you about that. [00:54:39] Speaker B: You got to have a little bit. [00:54:41] Speaker A: So that's why I say, like, there's not a lot of video. You know, there's some old performances of me that I, I did leave up because I Thought they were fun, but I, I, I don't, I'm not big on the, the, you know, that's because I think that this is an intimate thing, like performing live is. It has some serious potential for power, you know, for, for emotional connections and for, for fun. I mean, for fun's the big thing. Like, I don't, it doesn't matter. [00:55:10] Speaker B: Evil or evil. [00:55:12] Speaker A: Evil can be a lot of fun. Watch any cartoon. The bad guys are always having way more fun. Right? [00:55:19] Speaker B: Oh, Team Skeletor all the way. [00:55:21] Speaker A: Exactly. Other dudes got to run around in a thong and all of those guys get to have monster wings and a werewolf. [00:55:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's way better. I mean, I will say you, you know, you having not having much of an Internet presence makes it very hard to make a thumbnail for this video. [00:55:38] Speaker A: It's fun, right? [00:55:39] Speaker B: I know it's, we're have to figure something out. [00:55:42] Speaker A: I know it is that, that is one of the drawbacks I noticed. Right. Is that I also have no Internet presence. [00:55:51] Speaker B: That's, that's not a bad thing. It keeps your grandma from getting hustled like mine did once. [00:55:55] Speaker A: That, that sucks. Yeah. [00:55:58] Speaker B: They got her for, they got her for a few thousand because they, she said I was. Somebody called her and said I was in jail and didn't want my parents to know. [00:56:05] Speaker A: Oh, that's fantastic, isn't it? I just can't even wrap my head around, see. So I've studied. I've always been fascinated with con artists and thieves and like these weird charlatans. Right. Just overall always fascinated. And when I read stories about people like that and I see the videos or you on YouTube, one of my favorite channels are the people that will they hack. The hackers, the scammers. [00:56:34] Speaker B: I love those. I love those guys. Yeah. [00:56:37] Speaker A: And I can sit there because again, I had that background in computer science, right. So like I have surface level knowledge at this point. I'm so far out of the loop, but I know enough to know how much fun those guys are having, you know, And I can sit there and appreciate what they're doing and what scammers are trying to get away with. So I love watching those guys get taken down because I can't wrap my head around doing that to other people. Right. Yeah. That level of design is kind of incredible. So to like take advantage of, of somebody's grandmother. The hell is wrong with you? [00:57:09] Speaker B: You know, Straight to hell. That's where they need to go. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So incredible. Yeah. Hot take. I mean, it's, it's brave of you to come forward with that. [00:57:18] Speaker B: The hot take, scammers suck. [00:57:20] Speaker A: The scammers and thieves are bad take. But, you know, I'm proud of you. [00:57:24] Speaker B: Thank you. It's a journey. Journey before destination. And where would you suggest somebody that's interested in learning more about magic? [00:57:35] Speaker A: Oh, it's a great question because it is a loaded question, right? Like, it's one of those things that the loaded questions are the ones that were. Ah, we'll think about that later. We'll figure it out. So I don't think a beginner should jump straight to, you know, like the Vernon Secrets book, you know, any of those. There's a, you know. But I also think that we've hit a point where there are better resources in the royal road to card magic at this point. You know, the card college series. Incredible. Some of the best written books on on card magic. Right. You know, even if you don't agree with, with some of the theory or you don't like this technique, whatever, the writing is spectacular. You know, like that's really. So I've learned that magic books are hard to write because magic is hard to do and writing is also hard to do. So you're like the Venn diagram of people who can do both is really. There's not much overlap, you know. [00:58:37] Speaker B: No. [00:58:37] Speaker A: So you see some people who are really good at it though, right? Stephen Minch, Josh J. Yeah. These are guys that like, they are writers and they are magicians. So they can do both. [00:58:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Joshua J. My first, my first magic book. Joshua J. And believe it or not, the magic of Michael Lasher. [00:58:58] Speaker A: I have that one too. [00:59:00] Speaker B: It's so good. [00:59:01] Speaker A: It's actually Lasher. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:04] Speaker A: Is that a floppy like. [00:59:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:59:08] Speaker A: Now, I mean, man, 2025. Is there anything better than the Metal series, right. The Erik Jones videos that illusionists put out because Eric's got the sexiest hands in coin magic. You know, like that guy does all this amazing magic. He's a really good teacher. So if somebody was interested in coin magic, you just pick up that series and you're going to be able, you know, so if you want to pick up, you know, you get interested in minimalism, you, you can skip past the thirteen steps to mentalism for now and go back to that after you have some other ideas when you want to look at what the foundations were. Right. We can skip some skips the wrong word. We can, we can put some of this stuff into context, I think. Right. Like expert at the card table. A good example. Right. Everybody Loves expert of the Card Table. It's still to this day, there are, you know, like, everybody. People would write books on it and try to figure out who wrote it, because it's the ultimate mystery, right? But the material in it, Divernon, improved the stuff that needed to be improved. And then since Divernon, you know, and Marlo, we've had all of their students and their student. Students and their. So now, I mean, you can read the expert at the card table, but you can also just go and buy Jason England teaching you how to do second deals, and he's going to teach you a better version than the one, right? So it's not like. I'm not saying none of the old stuff is worth it now. I'm saying that, like, we put it in context and we think, oh, man, some of this stuff is. So there are some really good resources. There's just so many, it's. I'm almost bitter about how many resources there are for people getting into magic books. [01:00:59] Speaker B: I guess now I have to sell my Bobo's Cart, Bobo's Coin Magic book back. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Bobo's is a great example because. So I worked at the Houdini's magic shops in Las Vegas, right? I was there for. [01:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the ones I went. I've been to those. They're great. [01:01:13] Speaker A: They were a lot of fun for what they were designed for. They were touristy magic shops. We did Die Vernon material, right? So modern coin magic was, you know, was. Was the book forever until the Roth material was released, right? Because, like I say, Roth kind of revolutionized what we were doing. Well, Houdini's. While I was there, they had produced, if you're familiar, he's. He performs as the Shocker now, right? He wears a. Pro wrestling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really funny dude. He's lost a lot of weight, so I can't make. He doesn't look like the overweight wrestler anymore like he used to. He lost a lot of weight, Great shape, good performer, really nice guy. Drives me nuts because he's another one of those dudes. It's like he deserved to do well, and he did. It drives me nuts. He doesn't. [01:02:02] Speaker B: God, I hate it when people are successful, what they want to do. [01:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah. When good people get what they deserve. No. So anyway, Greg was one of the managers at the magic shop. Well, he filmed the Royal Road to card magic DVDs for Houdini's, right? So at one point, there was the Magic Makers videos, the Houdini's videos and the L and L videos all competing on the market at the same time. Well, modern Coin magic came up because the magic makers had, I think was in the process of doing modern coin magic. But Houdini's had their own publishing warehouse. So why wouldn't you know, it's capitalism. Why wouldn't you make your own, right? We can have our own, put our logo, do all this. So they asked me about it and one of the reasons that we didn't end up doing it was because some of the material in the book, the first question he said is can you do the stuff in the book? And I said yeah. He said like all of it. I said everything that needs to, you know, deserves to be done in 20, whatever it was. But like there's a section in the book on, on cuffing, right? So like when pants had cuffs that like rolled cuffs at the bottom. [01:03:12] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:03:13] Speaker A: You can flick a coin down and it'll drop at an angle and it'll hit your leg and slide right into that bad boy like a top it or servant. You can absolutely do it, right? You can French drop a coin, drop your hand to your side and just let that bad boy go. And gravity will put it in your cuff if you know what, what you're doing and practice and blah blah, blah. Who has cuffs on their pants, right? The only people I, I live in the South, I grew up in the South. The only people who had their pants rolled up like that were walking around in floodwater. You don't, you know, it's not even. I, you know, any suit I pull out of my closet, I think maybe one has a pair or has cuffs on the pants because it fell out of fashion and, and like I thought, oh, that would be cute to have on one of my suits, right? Like nobody. It just, it's not the fashion. So do we need to film that and put it on a dvd, right? So like the Modern Coin magic. The only thing is some of the materials a little dated but man, you pull any one of the tricks out of the book and stuff's all solid, you know, it's so it is, it's like there's some really good material but it's one of those things that like you have to digest a 250 page book, you know, and little by little does this read like it deserves to be studied. And then, and then you, or you just go and hit play and you got Eric Jones going. All right, you're going to put it here and then from here you're going to do this and this and this, and then the coin's just going to disappear and everyone's going to applaud. Right? Like, it's just that much easier to learn. So I think that, I mean, it's the best time for people to learn. It's also kind of a rough time for people to learn magic because, you know, you log on to Instagram and the first thing you, you know, you see in your feed are people who want to show you how stuff works. And it's because all of our feeds are trained to watch people performing, so we're going to see more of that than most people. But still, that's. Most people watching magic on Instagram are just. If someone showing how trivial the secrets really are, you know, it kind of makes it a little harder because now when you want to go to school and show somebody, oh, I saw that one. Oh, man, that's on that reel, you know. [01:05:31] Speaker B: So what is. What's your future looking like? [01:05:34] Speaker A: Well, so now, you know, I'm. I've got some ideas for. For a channel in mind, and Eric and I have been discussing that. Like, he's a videographer, so I was picking his brain on some things, and I kind of. I threw the name at him and he, like, his eyes lit up and I was like, all right, so let me. I'm gonna get a logo and drop some stuff. So I've got some stuff like that. A lot of what I've been doing is my latest artistic endeavor is I make a lot of wallets. Right, so this is on your Instagram. [01:06:08] Speaker B: That's amazing. [01:06:09] Speaker A: Right? So. And like, nothing magic related, I just. I kind of fell in love with the idea of building stuff. Like, I get to carry these. So, like, I do a lot of that in my. In my free time. But from the professional side of it, I moved to Jacksonville about six months ago. And, you know, in the last couple of weeks, like, I'm really getting that itch. And I've seen a couple of. Of shows and some cool venues that I. When I walk into a cool venue, I. I get a little more inspired, you know, because Jacksonville, there's. There is a magic scene. This is where some, you know, where Paul Cummins lives. There's a, you know, IBM, this, where he lived, I should say Paul passed away. But this is, you know, so, like, there's a scene here, and that's. I'm meeting guys like Eric, and so we've been brainstorming some things that we want to build because Jacksonville is a huge place. We feel like I At least feel like there's a lot of potential here for. For, you know, some. Some real, you know, just. Just a lot of fun. I am more interested in having fun if I'm gonna, you know, if I'm gonna be performing, you know, some. I only want to do the shows that I want to do. Like, I have a real job outside of. Of. Of magic at this point, so I can go back to kind of enjoying that side of it. So, yeah, little by little, I think more things are going to trickle out, but I'm really excited about this. The. The. This video stuff that I'm gonna do. Some fun. I don't know. I've. I've been. I've got some. Yeah, like, I've got some fun things that I've. I finally found the motivation to finish because you know how it is, right? Like, you have a bunch of projects and like, I got all these projects right here that, like, as they come together now, I'm starting to figure out why I was able to put it off for so long. Like, I'm finally ready to. To like, you know, to finish up the writing in particular. [01:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Eventually. Eventually when people actually start watching the show, you'll be. Everyone will know who you are. [01:08:07] Speaker A: That's. That's the deal. Right? So, like, in six months when people are like, oh, let's go and watch this thing from forever, then that's when. By then, I might have gotten something done. So we can only hope at the time. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Also, Eric. Eric needs somebody to kick his butt and make him do stuff. [01:08:26] Speaker A: He's. [01:08:26] Speaker B: He needs to be motivated. [01:08:27] Speaker A: I'm figure in that, that. That's another thing we have in common. Right. [01:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm the same way. I'm a dreamer, not a doer. I'll come up with all sorts of great ideas, but I ain't doing it. This is the first thing I've actually followed through on in a long time. I just want to say thank you so much for coming on our podcast and talking to us, Jeff. [01:08:44] Speaker A: Oh, thank you for having me on, Todd. This has been. This has been awesome. This is. I always love to chat about magic. [01:08:51] Speaker B: It's. It's fantastic. So we'll be seeing you. We're looking forward to your new projects. [01:08:56] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you. [01:08:58] Speaker B: And all of your Instagrams. [01:09:00] Speaker A: It's just the Jeffcorn at. On pretty much everything.com on Instagram everywhere. [01:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah, you're. You're the only one. I know. [01:09:09] Speaker A: I. I tried. I. You know, I tried. There's only one other corn in magic, and that's Chris, and he spells his name wrong. It's the only other one I know of, so there's probably some more floating around, but I think we're pretty rare. [01:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:21] Speaker A: Great. [01:09:21] Speaker B: All right. And scene. Thank you for watching. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe to the channel. It helps us a great deal. It's quick, it's easy, and it makes a huge difference. And we will see you on the next episode. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Sa.