Ep1 Magician Erik Tait from Penguin Magic

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Todd and I interview magicians. This is Magicians Workshop. On today's episode, we are thrilled to welcome the incredibly talented Eric Tate. Eric is an award winning magician and comedian whose accolades include winning the International Brotherhood of Magicians Gold Cups Close up competition in 2018 and becoming the first American in 20 years to stand on the podium for card Magic at FISM, the World Championships of Magic where he took home third place in 2022. You may also recognize Eric from his appearance on Penn and Teller Fool Us or from stages like the Magic Castle in Second City, Toronto. With a degree in comedy writing and performance from Humber College in Toronto, Eric is the only magician in the world who can academically prove he's hilarious. As a producer at Penguin Magic, he is also responsible for some of their most popular effects such as Gasp. And my personal favorite, Ultra Lucky Coin. So let's dive into the creative process, inspirations and experiences of a magician who's left an indelible mark on both the comedy and magic worlds. Welcome, Eric Tate. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Hi, Dr. Todd. How are you? [00:01:17] Speaker A: That sounds totally right off the top. That was great. [00:01:21] Speaker B: No, yeah, I've been, I've been working all day. So the, the Penguin Magic Holiday Special is about to be released again and so I've been feverishly editing comedy videos for it. So, so that's, that's going to be happening soon and I just finished my last thing today, so now I get to get back to my regularly scheduled job at Peking. [00:01:43] Speaker A: I'm so excited to hear that. I'm actually, I'm. I'm sorry, I'm. I'm a little bit of a Penguin Magic Stan. No, that's the right way to say it. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. No, I get it. Look, I was a Penguin Magic fan for a long time before I joined the company and, and so I, you know, it's. Sometimes you. I was actually, it was in there a few days ago with another, another guy who worked at Penguin and we were sort of remarking on the fact that we're just like, wow, we can't believe we work here. It's just you sort of take it for granted sometime. I mean, you know, I kind of got interested in magic when I was like in my early 20s and Penguin was the big dog in town. I mean, you know, some of my first things I ever bought were things that Oz Perlman had or Jay Noblezado was putting out and, and now I'm doing the same thing they were, which is just wild to me. So it's, it's easy to forget how, like the, the place that you occupy when it's just your day to day thing. So. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Wow, that actually leads into. You said you kind of really got into it in your early 20s. What was your first memory of getting into magic? [00:02:55] Speaker B: It happened sort of in stages. When I was very young, my father was on a business trip. He brought me with him. And there used to be a series of magic shops that I know David Williamson worked in one at one point. But it had like all this dark wood paneling, and there was three or four of them across the country. And I'm not saying it was David Williamson. I'm just saying that was. It was a. It was a shop that I know a chain that Williamson worked in at one point, but in Atlanta, Georgia, we were staying in like some Hilton or Marriott or something, and the magic shop was in there. And my dad took me in as a kid and got me cups and balls and nickels to dimes. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Cool. [00:03:30] Speaker B: And I, you know, I messed with them, but I didn't really do a lot with them. And at some point in like middle school, I'm sure I took a magic class at some point and did something and kind of forgot about it. But what, what really got me into magic very seriously was I had learned to juggle in middle school and got a gig at a place called the Comedy Barn in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. And the. There were all these little sort of souvenir stations that you could go to, and they were all manned by the cast because you're more likely to buy a $30t shirt from someone you saw on stage than some sweaty teenager. And when I started working there, the owner said to me, well, you're a juggler. You probably know magic. Go sell magic in our magic shop. And I didn't really know anything. Like I knew cups and balls. And I had a vague idea of this Bengali deck, but I wasn't really like a magician. And there's a ventriloquist who already worked in that station and his name was Stephen Knowles. And he taught me my first couple of card moves. And I fell in love with a deck of cards. And I've had one in my hand ever since. So I sort of became professional magician, magic pitch man. The same day I got really seriously into doing magic. And at that point, you know, so I'm juggling on stage in the show, but before the show and during the intermission and after the show, I'm in this little magic shop selling Svengali decks, metal photography, cups and balls, nickels to dimes, hot rods, just, you know, I mean, you're staples in magic, Invisible deck, all that stuff. And so I was really working and learning how to pitch and perform those tricks at that time. And so that's. I mean, that. I would say that that is really when I became interested in magic. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Wow. So you're in your 20s, you're learning magic. What were your early influences? Like, you know, Leonard Green, who you've worked with? Is there anyone like. Like that that you had early on? [00:05:26] Speaker B: Well, so Leonard Green was an early, obvious influence, but not because of, like his DVDs. It had more to do with the World's Greatest Magic specials that were on NBC. And I was on another podcast hosted by a British magician where we would watch, like magic specials together and then like retalk about them. Alexander McAleer is who runs that. And we watched one of the early World's Greatest Magic specials. And one of the things that sort of brought me back when I rewatched that special was. It's hard to remember, but, you know, that was like the heyday of Must See tv. There was no. You couldn't watch video on the Internet because your modem was 56k if you were lucky. You know, there was no streaming services, anything like that. And the World's Greatest Magic specials came out and thanks on Thanksgiving. And so they were. Those were like huge Must See TV events. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Oh, I watched them. I had them all on tape. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And everyone saw them. And so when I got back into magic, it was very much me remembering. Oh, yeah, those. Remember those magic specials. Like, I wonder what's going on with those magicians now. So Leonard Green was one that stuck out my mind. Juliana Chen was one that stuck out in my mind. Oh, yeah, obviously, like Michael Lamar, Darryl, Matt King, a lot of them. That my early, early influences were from that there was a magic shop in like a proper magic shop in Gatlinburg that I would end up working at at one point. And some of my first purchases were like the LNL DVDs. So Troy Hoosier's Total Destruction series was an early one. I did end up getting Leonard Green's Green Magic very early on in my learning magic. But then a lot of the penguin stuff, you know, born to perform card magic. A lot of the early downloads that I would end up 20 years later going on to re film. So Red Hot Mamacita Mambo Number five. A lot of those early Os Perlman Transpose Zish, I think, were things that I was doing 20 years ago. And then much later on I would come back to do them. So it's all sort of all went full circle in a way that I could never have predicted. So those were the early stuff. And of course, a lot of the early illusionist stuff too. It's hard to understate how influential illusionist was in the very early, early days of magic and the Internet. I mean, so I had the, the, you know, Crash Course series. I had the, the, you know, Street Magic Volume 1 and Volume 2 with Brad Christensen or Brad Christian. The, those, I mean, those were pretty early influences on me. So a lot of like that era where you had, you know, Blaine was on tv, Criss angel was on tv, Copperfield wasn't so much on TV anymore, but it was a lot of the street magic stuff. And so that was sort of influencing what people were seeing. And that's, that's just, that was the, that was the very early stuff. But it was always like a very close attraction to cards. My first magic book, my first proper magic book was I bought in a used bookstore. And I didn't realize what I had at the time, but it was Expert Card Technique by Hugh Garden Browi. And it happened to happen to be a first edition that I still have to this day. What a find. Yeah, I got it for like 25 bucks. It's not in great shape, but I read it cover to cover and there's still stuff I do out of there. So that's. Those are. That's a lot of like the early stuff was just, you know, sort of taking it in like a fire hose from the Internet, DVDs and some lucky finds in used bookstores in the, in the early days, like, you know, Illusionist was king. They had the really hot marketing, they had the big email list. They had a commercial that like aired like during the David Blaine special. It was, it was, it was impossible. If you were getting into magic in those days, you. You knew about them. [00:09:22] Speaker A: Wow. I was in the. Also. They were. You ever remember the Black Club? [00:09:26] Speaker B: Oh, of course. I was a member of the Black. [00:09:28] Speaker A: I still have some of my sheets from that. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Oh, I've still got the. Actually, I just talked about this on the Penguin Magic podcast not too long ago. I have in my collection an unopened brick of sealed first edition Black Tiger cards. Yeah. [00:09:44] Speaker A: So I wish I bought more of those. I only have one. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Lord knows how much those are worth. But I definitely one of my first smoke devices I got in trade for those cars. So. Yeah, I mean, it's. I've It's, I've been around for a while, like, but I would, I'm definitely part of that generation that sort of the DVDs and VHS was sort of on its way out and downloads and digital stuff and the Internet was on the way in. So I'm one of those cusp people who had both and was learning from both. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Awesome. And I know you've done it all. Restaurant Magic Parlor Magic. Now Large Stage Magic. Do you have a favorite venue that you like to perform at? [00:10:26] Speaker B: I mean, my favorite venues in the world are the Close Up Gallery at the Magic Castle, the 654 Club at the Chicago Magic Lounge, and Of course the P3 Magic Theater because we, we built that from the ground up for magicians to be in there. I love doing close up. I love doing like a formal close up show where I'm not having to, you know, I cut my teeth at Magicopolis back in the day doing the bar stuff and that was always fun, but you kind of had to also keep the bar flowing and make sure you were making tips and money and everything kind of had to be modular. And I love doing my stage shows. I love doing my full 45 minutes in Mystique. I love doing the, the stage in Nashville House of Cards. I love doing the big stage in the Blackstone Theater at Chicago Magic Lounge. I love all the big stages and I much prefer to do like sort of my big stage show because I think my, my sort of full 45 minute hour show is, is arguably more powerful than some of my close up stuff. But then, you know, there's, there's something to be said about the restaurant that I work in every week, Town hall here in Columbus, and just, you know, going table to table and doing little three set, three trick sets and just rocking people's world is super fun. It's. Do I have a favorite venue? I mean, the Close Up Gallery in the Castle will always have a special heart, a special place in my heart. But also when I went full time, the 654 Club was the very first theater that I played when I moved out of sort of corporate regular person world and into like full time magic. And so there's always something that when I walk into that theater that I'm like, oh yeah, this is kind of where it, like where my life changed forever. So it's hard to say if there's a favorite one because they've all got special meaning and there's things I like about them in different ways. [00:12:16] Speaker A: So you said kind of when you left Corporate life. What was your life before? Full time magic. [00:12:23] Speaker B: So I worked in the plastics manufacturing industry, knowledge of which gets frequently used. And brought up at Penguin. I come from. My family spent a long time in the extrusion industry. So think of like a straw. It's a. It's a continuous process. And so I did a lot of different stuff in that. I was in supply chain for a while, marketing. I was in the innovation group. So I would work with developing new materials and new technologies. And I've done. I was, I was in plastics for right around nine and a half years after I did that, you know, I was, I was doing a lot of stuff in my youth. When I was younger and out of college, I was in Los Angeles. I was trying to make it a go as a standup comic. I was making it, trying to do a thing as a television writer and a film writer and a work in the television and film industry. And you know, none of that ever really caught. And then. And also like I was young and not good and a terrible human being. And so like, you know, as we all were. Yeah, I mean like I was what could only be described as in my early 20s, I was no fun to be around and thought I was, you know, God's gift to everything. So I had to be creatively kicked to the teeth and brought down a peg and learned to be humbled. And so I'm so thrilled that a lot of my friends from that era of my life are still my friends. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Nice. [00:13:40] Speaker B: But you know, so I worked in the cell phone. I sold, you know, cell phones for Verizon. I saw. I was a bank teller for a while. But a lot, A lot of my professional life in the manufacturing industry was spent in plastic extrusion, working and building products and things of that nature. So I know way too much about plastic. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Okay, that's awesome. You worked in the extrusion industry and I worked in the extraction industries, you know. Now you've been on national television. Penn and Tellers Fool Us has. How has that changed your career? [00:14:14] Speaker B: You know, what's interesting is as popular as that show is, it's also important to remember that there's. So people have such a varied media diet these days that they often don't see it or remember it for a while. Like I want to say six or seven weeks after I was on Foolish, I was traveling to go to the tricks convention that Scott Robinson runs in Raleigh, North Carolina, or Charlotte, one of those two in North Carolina. And I was in a. I was in an airport bar And I was messing around the deck of cards, and a guy goes, oh, do you watch the show Pen and Tell or Fool Us? And I said, oh, yeah, yeah, I do. And. And he goes, I was watching a few weeks ago and I saw this guy in there, and he had these three cards, and he made him disappear and reappear. And it was just really wonderful. And I was like, but basically, the guy described my own trick to me. And I was like, oh, yeah, that was me. And he was like, oh, and it was you. So it was. I've had someone describe my own effect to me in an airport bar without realizing it was me. So it's not like it made me more recognizable. It definitely cemented some things for a lot of magicians in the real world where they were like, oh, who is that guy? He's doing sort of difficult sleight of hand. And it gave me a lot of confidence to do certain things that I probably would have never done earlier on. Like, I never would have gone out for the IBM competition if I hadn't filmed Penn and Teller Fool Us in my professional career. The one thing it really definitely did was opened a lot of doors for theaters where they were like, oh, if he can be on national television, he can probably handle our theater. And two, with my corporate clients, it. It sort of made discussion about price kind of stop. So if I charge. If I was charging more for a corporate client, and I would say, well, you know, I was on Pen and Tell or fool us, it wouldn't allow. It wouldn't give me the ability to charge more. But it just sort of made them go, oh, he is worth that price. And either I can afford this or I can't. And so it was not a, like, well, you know, we were thinking about this much. Like, that still happens, but it happens less when you've got sort of the credentials that I do. And I. But I don't think that's limited to fool us. I think that there's a lot of things that do that for. For people at some point in their career where you. You end up with enough credentials that people just kind of stop negotiating with you. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Got it? [00:16:33] Speaker B: But it happened to me earlier, so is. Is what I would say. That's. And it just. And it made me more recognizable at, like, magic conventions and in the magic industry for. For whatever that is that is. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Well, your. Your beard is now, I think, iconic amongst the magic community. I mean, I see your. I see your face on Penguin. I know immediately who are. Who we're looking at. [00:16:52] Speaker B: Here. The secret is it's actually Eugene Berger's stunt beard, so. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. [00:16:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not actually, it's strapped on around the ears. [00:17:00] Speaker A: So have you gotten his. I only got part one of From Beyond. Do you, did you read the second Eugene Berger? [00:17:07] Speaker B: I have not. You know, Eugene is one of those who I have a lot of his theory, theory that I've listened to. There was a series of tapes called Growing in the Art of Magic that I had digitally converted that I've listened to a number of times. But I, I am sadly lacking in a lot of his close up work. Unfortunately for, for reasons that just don't escape me. I think part of it is because he was doing a lot of bizarre magic, at least at the time that I knew he was. And that stuff just doesn't interest me. [00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah, his, his live, his live Penguin live was, was very. It was just Eugene Berger like being himself. And it's just if you love that kind of thing led you to join Penguin Magic, how did that come about? [00:17:49] Speaker B: You know, there's a lot of people who ask me, hey, how do I get a job at Penguin? And the part of the real secret behind it is you need to have two skill sets that are very unusual for people. One is to be a magician, you know, preferably a knowledgeable one and have some performing experience. But the other, truthfully is if you want to be involved with Penguin or really any magic production company, you need to be good with a camera, understand how to edit video or take photos. Long before I joined the team at Penguin Magic, I got pretty fascinated with photography. And I do. At least I did for a while. Now I use a camera every day, so it's less of a thing that I engage in. But I've done a lot of wildlife photography. I've traveled through jungles in South America, taken photos of parrots and monkeys and eagles and bugs and stuff. I. Every time I go on a trip, I take my DSLR camera and I enjoy editing the photos and making them look as good as possible. I have a Flickr account that I post to occasionally. And then my animals in my home I'm constantly taking photos with. And I do more like mobile photography with my phone these days because phone cameras are crazy these days. But I still love the act of going out and taking a photo, bringing it home, processing it, and then sort of publishing it. And so for a number of years before I worked with Penguin, I was working with a camera a lot. And I was doing a lot of experimental stuff too. I got, I got pretty fascinated by GoPros and so I would make weird GoPro videos. I'm, you know, I do have this background in stand up and sketch comedy and I had a group of people that I worked with and we made comedy videos. And you know, they weren't like super high budget or anything, but I had a working knowledge of how to use most editing software, you know, because I was the one who was interested in editing the videos and mixing sound and doing things like that. So when Penguin. There was a time when Penguin like lost a couple of people for various reasons. You know, they went off to other careers and, you know, wish them the best. They're still friends, but they needed people. And Nick, who was a friend of mine at the time, was like, well, Eric does videography and photography and is a pretty good magician. And also he knows like Internet stuff and I think he's pitched magic before. Why don't we talk to him? And so it was a very quick like, you know, I got thrown some footage. They asked me to cut together a demo and a tutorial as like an audition. So I did a couple of those and you know, the next thing I knew, I was on board with the team. But. And the other people that I've talked to in various magic companies, it's a similar story. They are people who, they have two very distinct things that they like. One of them is magic and the other is photography and videography. If you talk to any of the guys over at Vanishing, you know, you know, those guys are great. Those guys are great videographers, great photographers and have been well before they got into magic. Right? And it's the same with, you know, people over at Murphy's, the people who were, you know, actually producing the videos and stuff. I mean, it's. You've got people who are knowledgeable about magic and knowledgeable about producing stuff. I mean, even as we're sitting here in this video, like I'm sitting in like a home broadcast studio with multiple cameras and lights and, you know, this stuff all like matters so that I can produce high quality stuff from home for Penguin. And it's, it's not just about doing the tricks, it's about putting together the final product. And then the. Once I got involved with Penguin, it really became the crash course in like, what do we think of as the customer experience? And that's what I've spent the last six years or so really diving into and getting my arms around figuring out how to make tutorials better, how to advance the way we teach magic and the, you know, whenever I am approaching a product from the, from the very beginning, I have to think about the product as though it was somebody's very first magic trick. So if they, maybe they came to Penguin from a Facebook ad or an Instagram ad, or they saw us on TikTok or, you know, Nick did something crazy on Instagram and that is like what led them to Penguin. And they were like, I want to do that when you receive the product. Right. Because you. It's not just about catering to the magic community that exists, it's about Canadian. It's about catering to the potential magic community that could exist and the people who are sort of the next generation and who are going to be the next Darren Browns, the next David Blaines, the next David Copperfield's. Because everyone has to start somewhere. And if you don't have a good experience on the ground floor, then you're not going to become, you know, more knowledgeable and interested in magic. And so that's, that's really where I am right now. So sometimes, like, if you get a Penguin product and I'm explaining to you, like an Elmsley counter, a second deal, or not a second deal, but like a double lift or something, and you're like, oh, this is baby stuff. I don't. It's not because I'm trying to, to speak down to you, it's because the person next to you might need to know that stuff. And so structuring the tutorials in a way that can make it great for an existing customer, but also a positive experience for someone who's never seen him, who's never done a magic trick before, is really important. And that's. And that's all, you know, it's more than you asked, but that is, that's, like where it came from. And then like what I started to focus on when I got involved with the company. [00:23:45] Speaker A: So that, that is a really good way to look at it. [00:23:51] Speaker B: I think that one of the things that is sort of lost in current magic culture is the teaching of the art. Because. And I try not to name drop or anything, but I've been very fortunate to work multiple conventions with Michael Lamar now and also interview him multiple times, not just on the Penguin Magic podcast, but also we've been on conventions where he's been asked to do a Q and A, and then he goes, well, Eric is here. Why don't you just have Eric do the Q and A? Because he knows the right stuff to ask me. And it's just, I Think we've done that like on three or four conventions together now. That's awesome. And you know, it's not like we get booked together, it just kind of happens. And Amar was one of those ones who really impressed upon me when I was talking to him about how important the teaching process is and how important it is to be considerate and thoughtful and deliberate when you're setting up your lessons. I actually come from a long line of teachers. My mother was a teacher. Her mother was a social worker who worked in the education system. And I went through the Montessori teaching philosophy when I was young, right up until high school. And so for me, it's not just about teaching you the effect. It's also teaching you how to teach yourself to learn other stuff. And so that's. Those are the things that I'm trying to incorporate into these lessons is to take these other styles and methods of teaching and bring them to the magic community in a way that will, will leave it better than I found it. [00:25:28] Speaker A: And I wanted to get into a little bit about the, the website and how that works. Even every time I look at that website, it's got this sheer amount of mass of products. If I'm starting it as a new hobby and I get to that website, what do you kind of suggest I start? [00:25:46] Speaker B: So the first thing you need to do is when you go to the top of the website, there's a place where you can get free tricks if you put your email address in there. Now obviously we want your email address so we can send you emails and, you know, tell you about new products and things like that. But you do get this, you know, pretty well thought out video from. I think Rick Lax put the original one together. I know we're working on a new one to sort of update it, but there's some great tricks in there, some card tricks and coin tricks. I think Fizzmaster is taught on there. It's a Paul Harris trick where the bubbles vanish from one shaken soda can and then reappear in another unshaken soda can. It's a really cool idea. [00:26:24] Speaker A: That's cool. [00:26:25] Speaker B: But so that's the first thing is that you get some very easily accessible tricks there. There are search tags that, or like different categories for like beginner tricks and things like that. But I will also tell you that we are actively hoping to update the website, you know, soon. Ish. I can't give you a, like a drop dead date for that because we do get questions about the email a lot because it looks a little Antiquated. It looks a little on the older side. And there are certain features that you can't do, like filter out tricks that are sold out. And part of that is just because when you get a catalog that is that large and have all of those reviews that are in there and the history and the data, there's a lot that goes into that. And, and this isn't an excuse for why the, the website hasn't been updated with features like that. It's just sort of an explanation. One of the things I did in the manufacturing world in the past was I moved a company over from one ERP system to another. That's enterprise resource management. So that's how sales or like purchase orders are entered. And then that creates, you know, work orders and bills of material for the manufacturing group to bring. And then the packaging team gets it all together and then shipping out. It's a, it's pretty sophisticated software and, and if you don't move over in a thoughtful way, you can destroy a company overnight. Many industries are replete with companies being destroyed overnight by changing software. And when you think about some of the greatest repositories of magic knowledge of all time, the Magic Cafe is another one that I think of. The Magic Cafe has been around for a long time and it looks, you know, old. Right. But imagine the monumental task of trying to move that over to a new system that's more easily searchable, easily indexed. I mean, that's a colossal task for anyone. And it's kind of the same with Penguin because every product that's on there, almost every product, has tons and tons of reviews. And people read those reviews and they, they matter and make sense. And then you're also moving over, you know, video, not just the tutorials, but the demos and all kinds of other things. And that is a very, very big task that has been underway for years to get right. And so it's, you know, there's so many things and we want to get it right before we do anything to update it. And we've made various updates. Like, I don't think people realize this. You can watch demos and tutorials in 1080p on our website. You used to not be able to do that. You used to only be able to watch it in 360, not even 720, only 360. So like these little, little tiny videos, but it's all in full high definition now. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of little incremental changes that we've been able to do. You know, when we broadcast the Penguin Magic Awards or when we do, like, a live stream for Black Friday. There's a lot of incremental changes that we've been able to add to the website over the years, but very large global changes have been harder to do because of the things that I just talked about. And so it is. It's easy to say, make your website, you know, function differently or work differently, but it's very difficult in practice to actually do that. Okay, yeah, but it's. It is something that we're thinking about and wanting to get on board with. It's not an excuse is to try and, like. Because that was one of the first things I said when I joined. I was like, why does. You know what about this? And then someone, like, broke everything down for me and showed it to me, like, behind the scenes, and I was like, oh, this is a way bigger task. [00:30:25] Speaker A: It's a lot of video. I mean, it's. It's a lot. Probably a lot of moving parts, too, because you're selling things, you've got online video. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's a huge task. So it's definitely one of those things that we're working on. And we've been. We've told people, like, hey, it's coming. Like, can't tell you when, but it's definitely something we want to do. [00:30:42] Speaker A: When you're coming up with a new product like Ultra Lucky Coin, which, by the way, absolutely kills at every single restaurant that I've been to, it is such a brilliant idea. And it's enough to where I go, and I'm like, why? Why didn't I think of that? It's so genius. Where does that come from? [00:31:04] Speaker B: I don't think many of my ideas are very clever. I often view my own methods as, like, super brute force. And I'm just like, ah, people can see through this. And then the magician crowd likes it and they're like. I'm like, oh, okay, all right. I don't know how. My buddy John Armstrong has a great quote in one of his lectures where he says, people ask me how I come up with great stuff, and I go, it's really easy. I just steal from dead people. And that's not far off. But I just wait until they're on their deathbed. No. So there's sort of two different questions you're asking me there. One is, you know, how does a product come to be with Penguin? Especially when, like, I'm involved with it or Nick is involved with it, and then how do I come up with My own stuff. And those are two, like, very different answers, because if you kind of look at my own stuff, I don't actually have that many products out. I have a fair number of downloads because I screw around with cards all the time, and I'm constantly, like, working on little things, or I'll sort of improvise at the restaurant, and they go, oh, this is kind of neat. And then, you know, we'll end up with that. Ultra Lucky Coin came out of. I did the Lucky Coin plot a lot. John Armstrong had advanced the plot quite a bit. And then I had it in my head that I wanted to do it twice. And I was trying to make, like, little tiny flap cards. That was a complete fool's errand. And then I somehow caught on to the idea of magnetizing it and having, like, the little cover piece. And at the same time, lacapo was working on Lucky Coin as well, but he had a different route because he was using the fine print thing. But we have. We've essentially had the same effect. And so I showed him mine, he showed me his, and we kind of got together and said, oh, let's market this. And we put my name on it, because at the time he was working for Penguin, I didn't have any releases. And so we just sort of. He was a silent partner for a while, but now it's more known that it's very much like we split everything on that 50, 50, because that's a. That's a very much a. There's a lot of him in that that a lot of people don't realize. Gasp. Was a little bit different. I was doing Mr. Lifto by Ryan Schlutz for a long time, which is a version of the magnetized cards that uses a secret magnet and shimmed card. And I liked that, but I kept sticking to microphone stands. And so I wanted to get rid of my PK ring, and I didn't want to wear a secret magnet. And so I was kind of. I was in a performer's condo for a weekend, and I was like, well, what if I could. What if I could, like, use one card to actuate the flap? And then how could I get the flap to close? And I'm not really much of an arts and crafts guy, but over the course of a week, the thing came together. And, I mean, I bought so many different stupid little arts and crafts things while I was in. I think I was in Utah when I. When this happened. And the. The addition of the. The roughing spray was sort of the. The Final thing that brought it all together and I started doing it in the show that week and it worked. And then I had to kind of work backwards to get a close up version of it because the parlor version was mainly what I wanted it for. And then I showed it to the team and they were all like, oh, this is great. We should definitely turn this into a product. Because they know I did. I think I did it like in a show at the theater. And someone was like, you're not wearing your PK ring. How'd you do that? And I showed it to them and they were like, oh, that's new. And so I. It didn't really occur to me that it would be a real thing until some. Until the rest of the creative team looked at it with the products that come to Penguin. If you ever see me, you know, teaching or performing something that doesn't have my name on it, it's. There's a couple different reasons why that might happen. You know, the. The person may not be interested in being on camera, may not want people to know who they are. English may be their second or third language. And so the, the teaching and performing can get pretty tough, or they just schedule doesn't work out so they can't get there, or they want me to present it. Sometimes people are like, oh, yeah, please do this. Or, you know, we'll get all the way done filming something and then realize like, oh man, we need to add like this, that or the other tutorial to make it a really complete experience. And so then myself or Nick will get brought in for what we like to think of as like wraparound services, where because we're a touch point with the customer, when you see us, it's, oh, this is something that came up after all of the main shooting was done. And we want to make sure that you have a complete experience. And a lot of times it happens with people who English is their second language, where we'll have to add something else sort of late in the game and, you know, you get to the end of producing a project and you go, oh, we missed this wildly obvious thing because when you're like in the middle of producing and, you know, filming and directing and performing it and you're just like, you know, the best laid plans, you know, you know, what is it? Patton says, no, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Like, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I got to the end of it and I was like, we totally forgot to film this stupid thing, which is like super Crucial, but easily overlooked. And so a lot of that is just part of it is experience and doing it over and over again and becoming a generalist. And, you know, my. I have a very large magic library downstairs in my house that I'm constantly using for reference as I'm going through things. If I need to add credits to something or if I need to research a particular plot that we're working on. But a lot of the stuff is there. The, the products that we put out are all. Are mostly created by people outside of Penguin. And they submit the ideas to us so that we can produce it and bring it to market. And so they're not, you know, it's 90% of the stuff that we put out is not internal ideas. There's actually very few internal ideas. And that's the same for most magic production companies. You very. I mean, it's an internal idea. When you see, it's like, you know, this thing by Penguin Magic. Okay. The team came up with that together as a product. Like we were kicking stuff around the office and that came together. But if it's got a, if it's got somebody's name on it, then it's, it's probably an individual creators thing. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Okay. How do you usually take your submissions? [00:37:18] Speaker B: We. So there's only two things that are critical is we need a video that is a performance and a video that is an explanation. And it can be super rough prototypes. I can't tell you how many times someone has something, something to us that is like, it's. They've roughed cards themselves with like a grip stick or just using sticky back tape. And they've drawn like crudely drawn on blank cards, like what it is, or they've, you know, made a wallet idea out of felt. They're like, obviously this would all be leather in the final thing, but this is sort of like how it all works. We've had very, very rough stuff sent through. It goes through. There's a couple of filters that it goes through. There's a couple of people who read every submission and they look at the videos, they watch them. If they think there's any merit to it, they submit it to a core group on our creative team. And that is made up of a wide range of magicians who have a wide range of knowledge. People who are card experts, coin experts, mentalism experts, stage parlor, close up, you know, gimmick makers, all a very wide range. And you wouldn't believe the amount of stuff that gets shot down because somebody looks at it and goes, oh, yeah, this is basically just a variation on an old idea from Ken Krenzel or an old idea from, you know, Pat Page. And it's, it's nothing against the creator. We all kind of, sometimes we do parallel thinking, we end up at the same idea and there may be slight differences or that, but you know, there's a lot of well read people on the team for that reason. So we can avoid bringing something all the way to market and then going, oh crap, this is, this was put out by Troy hoosier in the 80s. So, so there's a lot of stuff that gets knocked down at that point. And that team looks at anywhere from three to five videos a day. We get a lot of submissions and, and people think that there's a lot of merit in a lot of the stuff that comes through. And there's, you know, people, everyone puts in their input and then we, at the end of the day, the sort of the, the production staff ends up in, the management ends up picking the stuff that they think will be good to bring to market. And then we, we enter into a deal with someone and then we, at that point it ends up coming across my desk and then also coming across Seth Race desks. Seth is the head of our manufacturing team and so he'll look at it and work to get it from rough idea to workable prototype. And he'll work with the art, the artist to get that prototype to the final phase for manufacturing. And then I'll take a copy of it out and road test it in the real world to make sure that we're not missing anything. Because there's a lot of magicians who create things and they miss pretty simple stuff. Like, hey, if I walk up to a group of people, how do I actually get into it? And so that's a lot, a lot of time I'm going like, oh, like not too long ago I was like, hey Seth, you can't, you have to walk into the thing with this setup. And he was like, oh. And so we worked to fix it and it was just, you know, you, you miss little things like that. But that's why we, we have a very rigid isn't the way, but it's like a very task oriented process to make sure that we're were dotting all the I's and crossing all the t's to make sure that when the final thing gets to you, it was, you know, it was tested by somebody in the field to make sure that it would A, get a good reaction, B, you can actually do the trick and then c. It was like made by a magician in Columbus, Ohio. So if you're getting a physical product, it was manufactured or quality controlled by a magician who would use it. So they know what they're looking at. This isn't some, you know, manufacturing associate in China who has no magical knowledge. This is. This is somebody who has magical knowledge that is looking at it and knows what it's for. And so that's why we have a pretty low instance of returns. You know, I'm not saying we, I'm not saying quality control stuff doesn't escape our production facility occasionally. I mean, we're mass producing stuff, but we have a very, very low return rate on stuff like that because of the way it's all produced and it goes through that. So it's. That's. I mean, I hope that sort of answers your question. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and also, I want to touch on the kind of made by magicians for magicians kind of concept, because you said that during the Dragon Scale podcast. How common is that? Where you're not just drop shipping stuff, where you're actually making it at your location by people that are testing it, making sure that it works. [00:42:08] Speaker B: It's super uncommon to my knowledge. Now, I can't speak for any of the other production houses out there and obviously like individual creators who are making stuff like in their garage and packaging up themselves, like, that's a different story. But to my knowledge, there's no other like, workshop that is, that is happening where, you know, at our scale anyway, at least, because there's a lot of people who are making stuff entirely over in China and then it gets brought over here and put all together. Or it's made in India or, you know, or it's made by people who are not magicians. Like, maybe it's made in the US but it's made by somebody who's not magicians. I. To my knowledge, we are the only workshop that is doing that where it's. It's made in the US it's made domestically, it's made by an employee of the company. And that, by the way, doesn't just extend to little things like flap cards. I mean, that extends to arcade coin, like custom gaffed coins that are being manufactured in house by a Penguin Magic employee. We got people back there who are machining down actual currency into proper coin gaffs. Obviously there's stuff that, when you can take steps out of the process, right. Like if you're making a gaff deck and you're having it printed by the United States playing card company. You know, a magician isn't touching every single one of those unless they've got to go and, you know, spray them with Plastidip or, you know, take them out. But like, there's a lot of stuff that you can get like already set up. But you know, even then there's quality control that is going through the magicians. You know, they're spot checking stuff, making sure that things were shipped correctly and you know, mistakes happen. But I think we, we've got a lot of good processes in place to stop it. [00:43:50] Speaker A: I mean, so, so how often do you let Roddy McGee get out to get treats? I mean, or is he just in the cage like making little magic doors the entire time? [00:44:00] Speaker B: Oh, Roddy is not working with us anymore. He's got his own company called Trick Trick Boom. And so he's doing a lot of stuff over in the UK by himself these days. So he's no longer a Penguin employee. But we still carry Trick Trick Boom products. And so the answer is Roddy is allowed out of the cage whenever Roddy wants to allow himself out of the cage. Craig Petty, on the other hand, we have thoroughly locked up under lock and key. Yeah. [00:44:25] Speaker A: He is never leaving. I, I, I, I'm surprised. I, I think you let him out to go to the bars to get tricks so he could get something to some fresh water. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah, but we have an ankle monitor on him and, and he's, and he's chained to the camera operator, so it's all smart. Yeah. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Have you ever had a mentalist come to you before you got the letter to tell you that you shouldn, Rick? [00:44:47] Speaker B: Not yet, but I wish, I wish they had on a couple of them. No, you know, there's, you know, I have a, I have a well known aversion towards mentalism for a wide variety of very stupid reasons. But yeah, no one's ever like come to us and been like, oh yeah, that was, this is gonna fail. And then it did you be, it's always, it's always a surprise at what is like a real, real swing and a miss. And what is like, oh, this is just gonna be like, we're gonna put it out, no one's gonna notice. And then like completely blows up and it's like the biggest thing in magic ever. You never really know. I mean, like, we, we like to think we have a good track record and pay attention to that stuff, but every once in a while you get surprised. So. [00:45:35] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I remember you were saying you Read like every review, you, the team reads every review that comes in. How, how, how much of that your time does that take up? Because there is a lot of products. [00:45:46] Speaker B: It's, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot when a product drops and a lot of that, like reading the reviews is important to figure out what we did right and what we did wrong. You know, there was, you know, arcade coins a really good example where I was reading a lot of scuttlebutt on the, the Magic Cafe and I even like chimed in and asked him. There were a lot of people who were asked like upset that arcade coin didn't come with an un gimmicked arcade token. And that confused me a lot because I mean I sold scotch and soda in a brick and mortar magic shop and no one ever was like, well I need an ungimmicked half dollar, right? Because like that, that just didn't, no one ever brought that up. But they were like, we need extra centavo. And like this is like what comes in the arcade coin package is, is almost identical to what has been shipped with scotch and soda for decades. And some people brought up like, oh, the arcade coin is like kind of a weird looking coin and there's a lot of different versions of it. So if I wanted to not just not switch it out, but to continue the effect and do other things. Well, you know, we, we told people where to find, you know, the exact, we were able to tell people like the exact kind to look for if they wanted to do that, you know, or there, you know, there's been, there's been interesting things that have come up with, with other stuff that is just, you know, you just don't see it coming. Or then people are like super over the moon about something that you didn't even realize was something that they wanted to, to put in there. So it's, it's important to read all that stuff, you know, and we're not like holding back reviews or anything like that or deleting stuff, you know, unless it's like very obviously like somebody trolling and like they haven't like, obviously haven't purchased the product and they're just like out to like, you know, be a jerk because they don't, you know, they don't like this magician. Like that's a different story. But like, you know, if it's a verified purchase and the review, and the review is a bad review, we let them post it. We're not hiding that stuff. [00:47:39] Speaker A: So I guess you got to get ready for reviews of your. The, the new bottle cap trick of people saying, why doesn't it come with the soda? [00:47:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think Capsize is coming out again. It's being re. Released with, with an update to the way the gimmick works. You know, there are people who are going to be upset that it doesn't seal when you put it on a soda, but. And like the bottle can leak, but, you know, you have to like, you know, sacrifices have to be made so that you can do the, the actual effect. [00:48:09] Speaker A: You know, I get the emails from Ajar. Is he coming up with those jokes? I. I don't want to like, you know, spoil it or anything, but I really like those dad jokes. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Some of them are ones that he comes up with. Some of them are stuff that he gets from Reddit groups of, of dad jokes. You know, it's. It's, it's a, It's a mix. It's a, It's a mix of stuff. [00:48:32] Speaker A: That, that hurt me more than anything else you could possibly say. [00:48:37] Speaker B: The blue wall is fake. It's a piece of spandex over. Over plywood. It's not real. Sorry there are any other dreams. I can crush. [00:48:48] Speaker A: Spandex. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:50] Speaker A: I'm actually hella impressed. That's. [00:48:52] Speaker B: Yes. It's an 18 foot tall piece of spandex that is slowly deteriorating, which is why you don't see it very much anymore. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Well, actually, I do want to talk about the P3 theater because I just think that is like a really clever idea. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, the theater is our production studio. It's where we film all the tutorials. It's where we film a lot of the live shows when we're doing like parlor or stage stuff. Every once in a while we film in the magic shop that's out front or we'll film in our little cocktail area when, when we're not. When we get a little lazy and we don't want to go out to a bar or restaurant or. It's super cold and snowy and rainy in Columbus. Yeah. But we've been there for well over a decade in that same space. It's just been remodeled a number of times and the blue wall is still there, but it's a. It's spandex velcroed to a wall in this like arch, brick, archway type thing. It's just, it's. The Velcro wears out and it's starting to fall down. And Dan Harlan actually made the blue wall. And none of us know. [00:49:53] Speaker A: I'm not Surprised at all how he did it. [00:49:55] Speaker B: So we're like, ah, one of these days we have to like. Yeah, because it used to go up and down. So there was a time where we would take it down so that we could use the black backdrop because it was a black, like, wall that we could sort of throw up, lights on. And if you did stuff with the camera, it looked really, like, cool, like with a. A bit like 50% gray almost. And the problem is, is that taking that wall up and down sort of wore on it over time. And so now we try not to take the blue wall down ever. But we have these nice black crushed velvet curtains that. That cover it now. And then in the most recent remodel of the. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Of the theater, let's get into Penguin Live, because that's actually the nearest and dearest to my heart. Is there any other performer that's your favorite or act that you've had on on Penguin Live there? [00:50:51] Speaker B: I. I don't really have, like, a favorite performer that we've had on. I have, like, favorite moments from over the years. You know, I. So there's. There's over. I think there's over. There's over 450 live lectures now. Dan hosted more than 300. I've hosted over 100, and there's been 11 total hosts over the years. And so Dan and I are far and away the ones who've hosted the most. And, you know, like, I definitively remember Jeremiah Zuo's coin lecture as Dan is notably not terribly a fan of most coin magic. And Jeremiah was coming in to do a coin magic lecture, and, and, you know, we were a little worried about it because, you know, if the, you know, we, you know, Dan's a pro, but we also were like, well, Dan's not a big fan of coin magic. We'll see how this goes. And Jeremiah immediately, like, just made Dan fall in love with his coin magic. And at the very end of the lecture, Dan hops up and goes, got to be honest, Jeremiah, not really a fan of coin magic, wasn't expecting to see anything good today. This is the best damn coin lecture we've ever had here. That was amazing. I mean, it was. It was really something to see because he. He really changed Dan's opinion of coin magic in that time. But. And also see, but like, you know, seeing Dan host Mario the Maker magician being there when Chris Philpott had Dan cut the Penguin's head open to find a card inside of it, I, you know, I've been there for so many Incredible moments. And, you know, Carissa Hendricks lecture is unreal. And her and Dan talking about plot structure and performance and building stuff is really amazing. And then in the lectures that I've hosted, like, getting to host Christopher Carter was super cool. Like, even though I'm not, like, a huge fan of mentalism, Christopher Carter's thinking is whip smart and super incredible and, like. And he's got stuff that you can apply to your own stuff, your own magic. Daniel Chard's lecture has got some card work that has inspired my own stuff. Let's see. Hosting John Armstrong, a guy I've known for 25 years, was. Was really special. Getting a Katarina to host a Penguin to do a Penguin Live lecture was. Was huge because she's, you know, she's. She's incredible. You know, I've. I've gotten to, you know, host Mark Calabrese and have serious conversations about deeply underground card magic. You know, hosting Curtis Cam, you know, I mean, that was, you know, I learned some of my first coin magic from Curtis Cam's Palms of Steel videos. And so, you know, becoming friends with John Bannon, you know, there's so many little things that it. And it all blurs together because there's. Occasionally I'll be someone, be like, oh, hey, do you know about this trick? And I go, oh, where is it? And I go, it's in this Penguin Live lecture. And I'll go back and watch it. And it's like, I hosted it. It's like, son of a. I, like. I see so much magic that falls out of my head all the time. But, you know, here recently, Crazy Sam's lecture has got some unreal stuff in it. Christian Lambert's Cold Reading lecture is so good. It's. There's. There's too many things to count. I mean, so I don't have it. There's his favorite moments that I'll never forget, but, you know, but no real standout. And, you know, Dan Hand selected me to take over the lectures when he knew he was leaving. And it was a. It was a huge honor because I've known Dan for, you know, more than 20 years now. We. I started, you know, with him at the Magic. Magicopolis in Santa Monica. And so I've known Dan for a long time, and so. And he's very knowledgeable and is a great teacher and. And a really smart thinker and a great performer. And so to have him say, like, you know, I've been helming the ship for a while, and I'm gonna Hand it over to you, and I want you to host. It was, you know, that was a big deal for me. And the coming in to host. It was really tough at first because the. We shot in. In the old days, we shot so far ahead that I think Dan hadn't been hosting the lectures for, like, eight months by the time my first Penguin Live lecture that I hosted aired. And so for us, I'd been hosting for a year almost. And then. And everyone was just like, what happened? So we had to do, like, an emergency podcast to, like, have, like, Dan explain what was going on. And there's some people to this day who hate me, who leave terrible comments and are just like, bring Dan back. Eric's a terrible host. And there's other people who, you know, there are our guests that we've had for Penguin Live lectures who refused to give a Penguin Live lecture when Dan was the host, but have. Have asked repeatedly to come now that I'm the host. And one of the things that I figured out was being the. The host of the Penguin Live lecture is like being the new Doctor who, if anybody is not familiar with it, it's a British sci fi show. And the. The main character, the Doctor, has this ability to regenerate, and that's how they, like, are able to keep the show going and bring in different actors. And. And there are people who so swear that this one actor is the best and other people who swear this other actor is the best, and no one can ever agree on it. And so I just have to, you know, I just have to let it, you know, I just have to be like, water, let it roll off my back. I have to do my best to host it. I view myself as an advocate for the audience. And so if I sometimes seem like I'm interjecting myself too much, it's because I want to make sure that you are able to learn everything, that nothing is overlooked. Because sometimes when you're. When you're an expert at a particular trick, there's things that are basic to you but other people might not notice. And so making sure that things are taught in their entirety is very important to me. And so I'm pretty thoughtful about when I interject. And I've been working to get better at doing those interjections off camera and then having the person teach it in a slightly different way. And that's just a learning process over that. And I think I'm hosting it better now than I used to, but it's. But that's just an experience thing. [00:57:11] Speaker A: So Is it, is it still like, is it, I would say, is it still live or is it like pre filmed? [00:57:20] Speaker B: It's, it's been pre filmed for. Since almost the beginning. I think there were maybe only 15, 20 lectures that were actually live. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:28] Speaker B: Live casting is, is, you know, we got back into it during the pandemic. But live broadcasting is pretty difficult, especially when you're using prosumer level stuff like we are. You know, professional broadcasting equipment is incredibly expensive and it's expensive because it's very specialized and that's what makes it so reliable. That's why your television doesn't, you know, conk out on you all the time. And doing it over the Internet is even trickier. We're better at it now than we used to be. But it's a better product if we can take our time and film it and film it and bring it to you later. Also, I think that the people we've had hosting it are pretty good at anticipating the questions that the average customer might want to ask. And so there wasn't a lot of. While it may have been fun in the moment, the final product was just never as good as when we can pre tape it. [00:58:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Are there any magicians you'd love to see a lecture? [00:58:24] Speaker B: Yeah, there's lots of magicians. I'd love to see Alex Hilshy lecture. I'd love to have Mark Kobi in for a lecture. I'd love to have, I'd love to have Darren Brown back to do a lecture. I'd love for Copperfield to lecture. I'd love for David Blaine to lecture. But there's lots of, there's lots of magicians out there that I would love to have lecture. Actually, one that I would really like to have in is Jonio from Japan. He's the, My beard is weird guy. He was a third place parlor act. I'd also really like to have Simon Cornell come and lecture. I mean the, the, you know, having Michael Feldman lecture or Ryan Plunkett lecture would be great. Paige Thompson would be a fantastic lecture. You know, the, the, the list goes on. I mean there's so many people that I would love to have lecture because there's, you know, there's so many great magicians in the world. [00:59:14] Speaker A: Amazing. Two more questions. Are there any upcoming projects or releases you're super excited about? [00:59:23] Speaker B: Yes, there is one that I've been doing basically since 2022 now. We just filmed it. It's called the Invisible Harmonica by Fabian. We just finally filmed it. I've seen packaging for it. I've seen the prototypes and it is, it gives you the ability to play an invisible harmonica. And I can, I can honestly tell you it is one of my, it is, it's in, it's always in my pocket when I'm doing a walk around gig because it has, one of, it has one of the, the dumbest, most surprising things that I do. And it is really fun because I, I will walk up to a table that I've been to or a small group at a walk around thing and I'll go, I'm really sorry about this, but the bartenders asked me to check your id and then they'll act like, what are you talking about? And I go, I'm sorry, it's just, it's. I got a spot check, people. It's just a thing I do here. So I get their ID and then I look at it and I go, oh, you're from whatever the state it's from. And I go, you're from the music state. And I go, you know what, you can do some IDs with this. And I blow on it twice and nothing happens. And I turn it around. Oh, it's this side. And when I blow on it like a real harmonica plays and I play like a little tune on harmonica and then I give them their ID back and they're just like, what the hell? It's really, it is eminently stupid, but gets such a huge reaction because they're just not expecting it. And that is finally coming out and I'm super excited for that. [01:00:46] Speaker A: I can't wait. I'll be as soon as that comes out. [01:00:49] Speaker B: The other thing I'm very excited about is I am writing books for Penguin Magic these days and the first one that we have been. This was a big secret, but when you involve this guy, basically nothing's a secret. Craig Petty's book is finally going to come out. So I spent the better part of a year turning a lot of Craig Penny material into a hardcover book and that's finally going to come out. So I'm very excited about that. [01:01:13] Speaker A: That's going to be huge. [01:01:15] Speaker B: Yep, yep, that's gonna be great. [01:01:16] Speaker A: Where can listeners follow you? Where can stay updated but probably by signing up at Penguin Magic. Go get the free. Get the free tricks. I actually really enjoy my emails, so I appreciate it. Thank you so, so much. Yeah, no problem for spending a time with a little amateur. [01:01:32] Speaker B: No, not a problem at all. I'm always happy to reach out to the community, but people can go to podcast.penguinmagic.com to listen to the Penguin Magic podcast. And they can also find us at Penguin magic shop on YouTube and Instagram. Those are places to stay up to date with all of the new things we're doing. Other than that, just go to Penguin Magic and you can find out about all of the weird stuff that we are doing here in Columbus, Ohio. [01:01:54] Speaker A: Thanks for joining us today. I'm Dr. Todd and this was Magic Workshop. [01:01:58] Speaker B: It.