Magics Secret Weapon, Erik Casey: Magician, Creator, Visionary. Ep 3 Magician's Workshop

[00:00:00] Speaker A: My name is Eric Casey and today on the podcast I'm being interviewed by Dr. Todd and this is the Magician's Workshop podcast. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Up next is her interview with one of magic's secret weapons. He is a highly sought after consultant for creating tricks, as well as designing custom playing cards and organizing magic festivals. Here is our interview with Eric Casey. Eric Casey is a professional magician based in Jacksonville, Florida. Renowned for his expertise in close up magic, particularly with playing cards. He began practicing magic at the age of eight, initially performing corn tricks for friends and family. Over the years he has honed his skill and gained recognitions within the magic community. In addition for performing at corporate events and private parties, Eric is a creator and consultant in the magic industry. He develops original magic tricks and instructional DVDs which are sold to magicians worldwide, including in Las Vegas, California, Germany and Japan. He emphasizes the importance of acting and presentation in magic, aligning with the philosophy of Robert Houdin, who said a magician is only an actor playing a magician on stage. Eric is also active in the magic community through his company, Pinnacle Spades, Inc. And has contributed to magic publications such as Slighted. One of his notable creations is The Poker Test 2.0, a card trick that has garnered attention for its clever design and impact. Welcome, Eric Casey. [00:01:34] Speaker A: That's me. Applauding for myself. I don't know if that's okay. [00:01:37] Speaker B: I will, I will, I will add applause in. Oh, live in front of a fake audience. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good intro. I'll take it. It's. It's. The Poker Test has now spread to infinitely more countries than just the couple listed. But, but yeah, I'll take it. Okay. I never wrote an intro for myself, so if anyone does it for me, I'm like, nice. Good enough. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Normally when I, when I'm looking people up, I get. There's a lot of like the bios are written already. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:12] Speaker B: And. And you've done so much yet it's not. I, I don't have. As. I don't. I didn't see as big of a footprint. But I mean, but you're also extremely well known in the community of magicians. [00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't really know why there's not enough about me. I mean, it's probably me. I'm probably not putting enough out there because like, magicians have to be their own, like cheerleader almost always because like, we're not the most respected art form, which is a huge disappointment all the time. And, and yeah, that's just kind of the way it is. And I am not. I'm not my biggest cheerleader. I'm everyone else's biggest cheerleader. I'll support anyone I can, but when it comes to me, I'm just like that. Who cares? I'll put stuff out when I do. [00:02:57] Speaker B: I think that's. That's a. That's valid if that's your. If that's your comfort zone of just, you know. And that's actually one of the things I really wanted to talk to somebody who is in that space. Look at me, Baker. Look at this cool trick that I spent years developing, and now every single person using it. That's pretty dang cool. [00:03:16] Speaker A: It just. It messed with me. It messed with my head. To, like, hit that level of success so fast, which is, like. I'm sure every other person on the planet who's, like, trying to create stuff and release it is, like, rolling their eyes, wanting to stab me in the face, but, like, oh, my God. To, like, hit that right away. And then my next trick, sell a couple hundred copies versus thousands. I was like, oh, I'm a failure. Got it. Okay. Like, I don't actually know what I'm doing. I just created one good trick, and everything else is garbage. And then. Yeah, then I. Then I had to learn that. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm lucky is what I am. Like, truly. It's just. It was a blessing in disguise. And now I'm very happy. I have. I have one thing that's awesome, and I have a lot of other good stuff. That one thing is insane, and it's great, and everyone loves it, and now I'm back to loving it. So thank you. Poker test. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Let's. Let's talk about poker test. Okay, so where did the germ of that idea come from? [00:04:14] Speaker A: I was really into Richard Turner gambling demos and things like that. I for. For years, only performed with his Gold Seal standard playing cards. I still have a couple decks unopened because they don't make them anymore. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah, don't open it. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was like, these are the best ever. I'm only. I'm never touching another deck of cards. And. And then it turns out, like, sleight of hand is hard. Like, it's really hard to do what he does. Damn near impossible if I. I'll say. And after studying and trying to do it, and this is like, I'm like, 15, 16, 17. It just turns out well. 1. There's, like, a level of gravitas that he has that also gambling demonstrations make sense for him at his age, but a 16 year old doing gambling demonstrations. There's just something about that level. It just doesn't work as well. Like it just is. Like it just is. It's, it's still cool. Everyone likes it. But it's when like an older distinguished person is like, talks about gambling, there's something about that that you're drawn into. Same with mentalism, right? You see a really clean shaven dude, very like young, do mentalism. I'm read your mind. All this experience, you're like, no, you don't have that. You're a child. But you see some like Eugene Berger with the beard and have this look do it. It's the exact same trick, exact same script, but Eugene Berger does it better and it just is his look. And so I realized I'm like, okay, well gambling demonstrations are not working for me. I'm still obsessed with them. So I was finding ways to visually make the cards change of like five random cards into a royal flush. And so that was the, the birth of poker test at around 16 years old. And I was just studying different ways you could do that. I think around that time R. Paul Wilson had released Fantasy in a book or something. I don't know, I had saw it in like the Real Hustlers YouTube videos and like that was just a quick change and I really liked that. And I couldn't figure out how he was doing it. Turns out the easiest method is the most obvious and I should have just run with that. But instead I was studying rough and smooth stuff. Little. You know, if you don't know what poker test is, that's the method you. [00:06:32] Speaker B: You don't, you don't have. Yeah, we, we don't tip things. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, they can. [00:06:35] Speaker B: If they want to know how it's done, they could, they could watch the video and figure it out by it, by it themselves. [00:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah, if you want to believe that, you can. I don't really care. It's been out long enough. Whatever. [00:06:43] Speaker B: No, no, I, I think everybody knows there's roughing and smoothing involved. [00:06:47] Speaker A: How it's done is the clever part. And it's not even that. It's like that part's clever. It's the routining that actually ends up making it more powerful than it is. And that's all thanks to Greg Wilson. But I, so I had taken cards and changed them into a royal flush. And I like thought that was cool, but I was like, try again. I was still trying to do slights. And so I would show the four random or the five random cards. And then, like, steal a card off and, like, do this move. And, like, I just wasn't that good. And I had skinny, small hands. And so, like, people talk about windows and their fingers, and, like, I don't yet. You can see them. That I have windows for a day. I can. This is me struggling to close my hands, and it's just. You see right through them because I just have skinny fingers. And I was like, well, I can't be palming these off because it's. You just see it like, it's not good. And, like, people will talk about it. Doesn't matter the size of your hand. Anyone can palm. No, it does matter a little bit. Like, if I close a finger up like this and then have my hand, like, I can do it, but. Or if it's truly an offbeat and I'm going to my pocket, like, that's fine. Palming's fine there. But if the move is a palm, I can't do it. You just can see it. And so I was getting really frustrated, so I was trying to find ways to make it better. And you could see the cards between my fingers. So I was like, well, maybe if I go with blank cards, and I'll do blank cards to a royal flush, because now I can hide it a little bit better. And that still didn't work at all, even a little bit. But I liked the visual of blank to that. And then I realized, well, the back's gonna be different, so I'll do different backs and get more changes. But I still was doing slight. Still was doing slights. And that was kind of like the inception of poker test. I called it almost perfect back then because I would say, like, I would cheat at cards, and it's. You know, if the were playing cards, I have blue back cards, whatever, but in my head, they're all blank. Right. That's my whole storytelling premise. There's blank cards, and now I'm just gonna give them a wave, and it's a royal flush. But I'm an almost perfect cheater. I use the wrong deck, and now their backs are red. And so that was the presentation. I think it's cute still. But I was just stuck on gambling demo concepts, and it was A trick was done, right? You do the move, the trick's over. And then Greg Wilson came and lectured in Jacksonville when I was 18, and it was phenomenal. I mean, Craig, if you haven't seen Greg lecture, do it. [00:09:18] Speaker B: I. I have. It's amazing. [00:09:20] Speaker A: It's great. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's amazing. [00:09:21] Speaker A: I don't care if you don't learn anything. Like, it's just entertaining. He's, like, incredible. He is, at his core, one of the best performers. And when he's lecturing, he is still doing a performance, and it's really just good. So I was watching him lecture, and he was doing this thing throughout the whole lecture that I swear most of my club viewed as him being arrogant, which, like, he can be, and it's in earned arrogance. He's a legend. That's fine. [00:09:47] Speaker B: We love you, Greg. If you ever. Come on. We love you, and we're not saying anything against you. The best. [00:09:52] Speaker A: I'll call Greg right now and get him on. Like, that's. I'm still close with him. [00:09:57] Speaker B: I'll hold you to that. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it. He's. He's. Yeah, he's great. But. But, yeah. So he would do this thing, though, where he would just. And like I say, it comes up. People thought it was arrogant. I'd never thought it was. He would ask everyone after he did a trick. Well, who saw? Who saw a method? Who saw how he did it? Who saw? And, like, I get that, like, in his performance, he can come off as, like, very intense. But I was always growing up, like, I wanted to know if you saw a flash, if you saw something. I just wanted to know. And that was always. My sister Chelsea would always tell me, okay, well, I could see this. I could see that. You know, work on this. When your hand twisted this way, I knew it was something there. And I'm just used to, like, having someone like that in my life. Which pro tip to all magicians? Get someone like that in your life who can call you out. It's incredibly necessary. So in my head, I viewed Greg as just doing that. Like, he just wanted to know, did anyone see? So every now and then, I'd raise my hand and be like, I think it was this. And then you ditched it in this moment. It's like, I didn't see it, but your hand moved too quick. All this. And he'd go, okay, and he'd move on. And I better did it a couple times because, like, I don't know, he was asking, so I'll answer. So then after the lecture, I had some other magicians telling me, like, yo, you need to talk to. To him and show him that almost perfect trick and just see what he thinks. And so I went up like, hey, can I show you something? He just was excited instantly. He was like, yeah, of course. Like, you could show me anything. Like, I. And he literally was like, I had so much fun, like, with you in the crowd. Like, this is great. Like, so please show me what you have. I would love to see it. Like, clearly your. Your brain's working on overtime. Let's go. And so I showed him the trick. He instantly hated my sleight of hand. Um, it was bad. As he should. It was not good. And again, I called him out for stuff. So he called me out and was like, that looked bad. But then he started playing with the cards and he was like, give me a second. He's like, this is the craziest gimmick I've ever seen. Give me a second. And truly, he went to the edge of the room in the, the lecture, like, hall and just sat alone for what felt like an eternity. It probably was only five minutes. Then he comes back to our group and I've talked about this on other interviews and podcasts, and I will be all glad. And on the dvd, he then did the poker test. Like, there's no. Like, I will, I will always and forever credit Greg for that routining. And it wasn't perfect. It was a little shaky, but it was like the concepts of it, a multi layered routine were there because I was so quick to the trick, like, ah, look, it's done. And he was like, no, like, stretch it out, you know. Also, your slides are bad. You need to get one card displaced. So make that a part of the trick and instead of hiding it, highlight it. And I was like, oh, I love that idea. And then he was like, let's go get food. And it was like 11pm and I had work at 5am and I was like, all right, let's go do that. And we went to A Denny's open 24 hours, and we literally worked on poker test until about 3am just refining it and refining it, going over what the script should be, how it should work, all of that. Which I do love that it was a collaborative effort at that point, but it was a collaborative effort spearheaded by Greg. Like, and he could have just gone to bed, he could have done anything else, but instead he was like, I'll hang out with Eric and like, two other dudes that I don't know, and I will work on this one trick. And it wasn't an ego trip, right? Because, like, he could have been like, look at all the things I'm doing. But it's just like, no, this. Eric has this trick. Let's work on it. And then, yeah, and then afterwards, I'm walking into the parking lot. Like, I need to go and take a shower so I can go to work because it's, you know, too late now. Like, there's no sleeping. And. And I was like, well, he just did. He had Pointless. That came out not too long ago. And that was another magician's. And I hate that I don't remember his name right now, but it was Gregory Wilson presents Pointless by. I was like, this guy. And I was like, well, that was awesome. Greg, take this to take the poker test and it's yours, and do Gregory Wilson Presents the Poker Test by Eric Casey. And Greg, literally, to this day, I don't know why he did this, but he went, no, that's your trick. You need to do the hard work. You need to put it out. This is yours. And then I didn't hear from him for, like a year and a half because I reached out to. Because I was like, I don't know how to do this. Like, I am just some kid. And then I worked for Daytona Magic for a bit. Daytona had flown me to Vegas for the IMX conference to be a dealer. And walking through the halls at the Orleans Casino, I see Greg and I like, sort of wave to him to be like, oh. Like, I. You know, I get that he's a legend and he's like, with people, but also, it's one of the few people I know here. So I was like, hi. And he was just like. Calls me over quick, and he's like, do you have that trick still? I was like, yeah, it's literally on me, because why wouldn't it be? He's like, show it to this guy. And I show it to him, and that guy goes, oh, is it for sale? And I go, no, not yet. Like, I'm not sure how to do it. And he went, well, when it is, I'll take the first thousand. And I went, what? And he was like, oh, I'm ajar. I. I own Penguin Magic. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:21] Speaker A: I was like, ah, it's for sale now. You can have the first thousand. I don't know how to do this, though. And then he gave me Tim Trono's contact information. And Tim Trono, who works with Penguin as well, kind of mentored me through how to release a trick. And then. Yeah, so that's the. That's the whole story. And then it. Well, that's not the whole story, but that's the beginning of the story. And then it exploded on the level I'd never anticipated. And. And it sold out in the first weekend. And it was insane. And I. It was the wildest experience to this day. I mean, it was insane. [00:15:59] Speaker B: That's hard to follow up, because one of the things I was going to ask is, okay, how do you. How do you navigate, you know, sending something into Penguin? You just ran into a jar. [00:16:08] Speaker A: So it's Greg. I mean, I didn't. I ran into. But Greg made the introduction. And, like, Greg's not an idiot. He know what he was doing. He was like, come and show this guy right now. Like, and. And so he. He kind of, like, you know, made that connection happen. So, again, props to Greg. Huge, huge fan. I. I would not be here if it wasn't for him. I think. I think I might have got here at some point, but he definitely made it a much faster process. [00:16:35] Speaker B: That's amazing. So you're. You're. You have this huge win on Penguin Magic, then what? You eventually end up doing poker 2.0. [00:16:49] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:16:50] Speaker B: So how did it go from poker to poker 2.0? And. And. And. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:56] Speaker B: So. [00:16:57] Speaker A: So Poker test was awesome. And it sold out. And I was making them all. And my buddy Jacob Tyre, if he ever listens to this, he's not a magician. He probably won't, but I still need to say his name. I taught him how to make the gimmick, and I hired him. And then he was making them in my garage, and I was making them in my garage. And so thank you for Jacob, but we were making them and it was time consuming, and then we sold them to Penguin. They sold out, like, instantly. Then they called me up and said, we need another thousand. And I went, oh, my God. That took, like, six months. Like, I can't just make another thousand. Like, I. I'm working a job. I'm doing, like. I'm doing so much. Like, I don't have time. Like, how. Like. And on my head, I'm like, how do magicians do this? Like, how do they keep up with the demand of selling a trick? And then again, I go back to Tim Trono and I'm like, all right, you want a thousand? That's awesome. I don't. I don't know how to do that. So, like, who do I talk to next? So he put me in contact with some people who can gimmick cards. And he. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna name the name because they did do me right in the long run. But I hired a company in the magic world to make the poker test for me, and this is still 1.0. They sent me a sample. It was flawless. And so I went, perfect. Make a thousand. So they did. I was poor, so I said, don't ship them to me. We're gonna ship them straight to my DVD manufacturer and they'll just do all the packaging in house so I can just save some money, save some steps. They do that, we ship them off that thousand to Penguin. From what I know, I would argue, like 80% failed, but I have it logged. That 723 failed out of the thousand that sold. So that's more than a 70% failure rate on the gimmick. Everyone was furious with me. It was a huge bummer because I, again, was at this point only like 19. And I'm like, oh, great. My first release, I'm literally failing like this. Everyone hates me. This is the worst experience of my life. So I fired that company and went back to my garage and started making them. And I handmade every single person's, you know, poker test replacement by, you know, by hand, packaged them up, mailed every single person a replacement, no questions asked, because I wanted to do right by everyone. Then I told Penguin, I'm out. Like, I. I can't do this like this. This is act. This is anxiety inducing. This is terrifying. I have people upset with me. People spent their hard earned money on a product that I produced, and it failed. Like, I'm good. I don't really want to do this anymore. I. This is never my intention in magic. I never, like, wanted to truly be a creator. I just created magic because I thought that's what we were supposed to do as magicians. When I was younger, in my brain, right? As a musician, you learn notes, and at some point you play cover songs or at some point you write your own music. In my head, I was like, yeah, we make our own magic. That's what we do. Turns out that's not what everyone does. But, like, that just wasn't my goal. Like, I never wanted to be known as a creator. So I just backed out. And I was like, I'm good. I can't. I can't handle this pressure. I made everyone right. I made everyone happy. And then I just kind of vanished. And then my buddy, Derek Windham, we were in Vegas together hanging out, and he was. We were talking about poker test. And then he was brought up the method for 2.0, actually, and was like, well, why do you do it this way? You need. You need to make the gimmick like this. It'll still work perfectly. Not even perfectly. It'll work Better. And then I was like, that doesn't make sense. I've never heard of this. I'm pretty in tune with this kind of stuff, but, like, I. I don't. I don't know what this is. So I went home, tried it out, and I went, oh, my God. Not only. Yeah, not only does it work, it works better. Like, it's. It is a better trick now because it. It's adaptable more. It's like, it's just. It's just better on every level. And so I told Penguin. I was like, okay, you guys are asking for this. People do want it. I have an idea. Let me just try. And I said, but I need a. I need a better gimmick maker. And then they put me in contact with Jeremy Hanrahan up in Canada. He was awesome. I told him how to make it with the. The new approach. He nailed it for I don't know how many units he made for me. I mean, probably 10,000 units at this point. Literally perfect. I. It so rare, Literally so rare that I had a failure rate with this new method and with Jeremy making the cards. And so, yeah, that was. That was Poker Test 2.0. Shot a whole new DVD, whole new demo. No, that's such a good story, too. I didn't shoot a demo. Well, I mean, I did. And then Penguin is like, you know, at this point, it's been a year or so, they've upgraded their capacity. They have their own studio, like, all this stuff, and they're like, hey, we don't want to step on your toes or take away your, like, artistic license, but we really, really like this trick and stand by it. We kind of want to make our own demo video, which is fair. Like, I'm, at this point, I'm 20, making it in my garage and, like, doing all the editing and just, like, you know, copyrighted instrumentals. It was bad. It was a bad demo. And in my head, though, I'm like, yeah, get your sales in, dude. I don't care. Like, it makes me money go to town. And they. They make the demo. You see, today is the demo they made, like, 10 years ago. And it's like the perfect demo video to explain what the trick is, what it can do. I'm in it a little bit. It's mostly Nick Locapo, and. But yeah, that's then became the demo video. And. And then years go by and they're, like, running out and they want me to still build them. And then Jeremy's like, I don't really want to make these anymore. But, you know, he makes them here and there for me. And then now Penguin is like, we have our own gimmick making studio. Can we make them? So now Penguin makes them and they make everything for me. So. So, yeah, I'm the biggest Penguin magic fan now because they. They've just taken. They've streamlined my whole process because it makes. I mean, again, at the core of it, it makes them money, it makes me money. We're all happy. But they also just a great job. Like, oh, my God, they're. Their quality is insane. So I trust them to death. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah. They. From talking to Eric Tate, they're. The fact that they're magicians making magic tricks. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Their quality control is fantastic. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. I love it. It was so crazy. Even with Jeremy, like, here and there, we would get some people that were like, oh, the gimmick doesn't work, blah, blah. And I'm like, I bet it does. But, like, send it back and I'll send you a replacement. Like, it'll be fine. But like, in my head I'm like, jeremy doesn't fail and user error. Yeah. And it's like, it's that or, you know, it's rough and smooth. So it does require. It's rough and smooth and also specific rough and smooth. So it requires kind of a claw grip, not a flat grip, and then with that pressure at your fingertips to get that spread. So when done perfectly, it'll work every time, but sometimes it needs more application of the special sauce. And so that's. I would just send them a gimmick that I would make by hand that I would just thicken it up a bit and send it. And they'd be like, oh, it works perfect. I'm like, yeah, it does, but. And again, no fault of those people either. They just needed a little bit more. And also, in the dvd, if anyone doesn't know the trick or buy it or it's an instant download now, I fully teach how to make it now at in your house because people wanted me to sell refill gimmicks, which, like, I used to, but it just. I don't know. I'm. I'm such a specific mind for how magic should be done. And I, like, am kind of gatekeepy on some things, but in my head, you should make your own gimmicks. And so I'm like, well, buy it, but here's how you make it. So don't ask me to make you one, just make it. Because it could inspire More creativity. As you're making it, you go, well, what if I did it this way? What if I change things and then now you get to make your own thing? And I get that not everyone thinks that way, and that's fine, but someone might. And if I've inspired one person just because I taught him how to make the gimmick, then, like, awesome. I love it. That's all I wanted. So. But. But yes, I don't sell replacements anymore. I just teach you how to make it. And if you want a replacement, unfortunately, you have to buy the whole product again. [00:25:18] Speaker B: Well, it's worth it because it's still. It still supports you for. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I do like that. [00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're. You're really in the space of. If you're a magician, it's. You want to make your own gimmicks. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Do you. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Do you have. When you do a show, is it like, 100% stuff that you've made or all your sweat and tears? Or is there, like, things that you use from other magicians that they've made? [00:25:45] Speaker A: There's definitely things I use. Like. I mean, like, loops, right? Those come in handy. Well, I won't lie. I use ties now from Penguin because I'm just a whore for Penguin. Anything they put out, I'm gonna touch. But, like, I use that, right? That's not me. But I do my own kind of material to a degree with it. I have my own handlings of everything pretty much, though, across the board. If you saw me perform, it would look all original, because that's just how I am. Like, I can't help it. So what am I closing if I'm doing a table set? One of my closing tricks is C3 by R. Paul Wilson. I think it's one of the best tricks ever created. But if you see, my handling, it is insane looking the way I do it, because I just can't help it. And it's just how it is. But it still is. It's his trick. But I'd say I'm about 60% original magic and then 40% me adapting other people's work. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Wow, that's way over a lot of people, which. [00:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. [00:26:52] Speaker B: It's. [00:26:52] Speaker A: So. I, like. I hate talking about it because it just feels. I've seen other people get apprehensive about it and, like, it feels arrogant almost. And I'm like, no, it's just how I am. Like, it's not. I'm not better than anyone. I just. I just simply can't Help it. If you tell me this trick is done this way, and here's the script, my automatic response is like, throw the script away. I'm starting over. Like, again. I've had Eric Tate's ultra lucky coin for years, and I didn't touch it because I went. I can't actually figure out how to make the script better or anything. I just couldn't figure out how it worked for me. And so I just didn't do the trick. That's the thing. I'll buy tricks all day. I have. I have a slew of tricks literally that can, like, see you from where I'm sitting that I. I just am working on because I haven't figured out how to make it my trick yet. And I. And, yeah, I refuse to do again, I don't refuse to do, but I just. I so rarely do someone's work as they do it because, I don't know, it just feels weird. It's not innately who I am when I perform, and I'm a pretty weird dude when I perform. [00:27:58] Speaker B: I love that. That's. That's really neat. Because your originality is. Is sometimes hard to find. When I watch magic videos, there's a lot of the patter is. I like it when somebody's come up with their own handling. It's. It's interesting. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:14] Speaker B: This is. Do you feel like maybe it's part of the learning process of going from a hobbyist to a pro is first you, you know, you may not start being the best at speaking, and you may fall back on something that somebody else says. Maybe that's your stepping stone to get better. [00:28:31] Speaker A: It probably is. No, I mean, like, it almost definitely is. Right. I just feel like so many magicians, too, are. Are, like, coddled in a way and not just. And like. And we should be. Magic is hard. There is actually no doubt about that. Like, it is when someone's like. And it's one of my least favorite things when someone tells me, wow, you're just so naturally good at that. And it's like, no, I'm not. No one is in magic, actually. I. I don't believe anyone's naturally good. We have to study and work hard and make it look natural. It is a learned skill through and through. And so because of that, creativity, I think, is a learned skill. And I think so many people, though, when they're back home with their friends, they perform someone else's material and it's. Applause. It's, you know, you did an amazing job, so who wouldn't who would change? If that makes sense. You're getting good reactions. Who would change? But then we go to magic conferences, we show each other these same things, and everyone still goes, oh, yeah, that's great. But I know internally, like, we're not all thinking that. And. And people are so afraid of critiquing other people. I'm. I'm the same way. I'm right here. Right? Everyone who shows me a version of poker test, that to me is just my version of. They're saying it's theirs. I don't say anything. I say, good job, and then I walk away. And I'm. But internally, I'm like, but we're all. We're all me, including mostly me. I'm afraid to have that hard conversation with a person to be like, oh, no, you didn't do a version. You did poker test the way I do it, but here's how we can make it better for you or something like that. Like, and I just feel like that's just so rampant in magic or common or like, you take someone's material, you do it exactly as is, and everyone just goes, nice. You did a really good job of that. So everyone thinks that's okay. And maybe it is okay. Maybe it's just my misguided viewpoint on how we should strive to be original, but maybe this. Also. Going back to your intro, were. Were actors playing the part of magicians? Well, what do actors do? They read someone else's script and they act it. They're not being original and writing their own script. They're reading someone else's words and doing it. So, like, who am I to then to say that they're not a magician when they're just doing the script that was given to them? So it's a tough thing. It's like, I'm sure if anyone's listening to this, they're like, this guy's out of his mind. Just. There's a dichotomy of nonsense of he's saying one thing and then instantly tearing down that, like, argument. So it's. I have a lot of thoughts, and they mostly don't make sense. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Well, I love that. But you're right. I mean, it is a dichotomy. It's. It is. You know, it's an art, but it's. There is people. There are people that act and they just want a script, and they want to go out and they. And they want to buy. They want to buy a whole act, and they'll just do that, and they. They will say it Verbatim. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:34] Speaker B: And you've got other people that will make everything, and they won't. You'll have never seen it before. And then there's. There's people that are in the middle. And I. I think that there's a. I think it's okay. You know, it's. It's. You can like what you like, and if. And that's. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:51] Speaker B: I don't think. I don't think you're ever going to stop that. But I do think I. [00:31:54] Speaker A: You know, and I don't actually want to. It's just. Right. This is just my opinion. And I, like. I have no desire to actually change the most things. Like, because. Because I think that would be bad for magic if everyone became. I mean, Right. I haven't kind of made a career out of creating and selling tricks. If everyone became original, my career would vanish. So, like, that's bad. So I. I don't actually want it. I just. That's just how I think and I say it, but at the same time, I'm like, no, please keep buying my stuff because I like it. I need that. I've got another trip coming out in, I think, March. Please buy it, everyone. It'd be great. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Tell us about the trick that's coming out in March. [00:32:34] Speaker A: It is my handling of the Princess Card trick. I will be brutally honest and say, like, it's not a cash grab, but every trick I've ever released is stuff that I, like, do. Except for this one. I did it. It works. I mean, it's great. Like, you'll see the demo video. Like, there. There are live performances of me doing it with people in front of them, and it slays. I just don't do it anymore. And I hadn't done it for a while. And then I was with Penguin for recording for Po, and they're like, do you have anything else? And I was like, ah. I have this thing that, like, I don't really do. And they loved it. Like, they loved it. It's like, all right, well, let's do it then. I'm not gonna say no. So it was never my intention to release this, but they really liked it. And I don't know, who am I to. Again, great. Going back to gatekeeping. Who am I to not put it out there? If people like it and people want it, then there you go. You can have it. Like, it's. It's. Y'alls for the taking. Have fun. It is. I think it's one of the most engaging performances of the Princess Card Trick that leaves them with a souvenir in their hand, which I love. I love that. But also, I'm me and I take it a step further and go insane. Not with the trick, but with the demo and with everything else. And I'm not going to get too into detail into that. You'll have to just see the demo when it comes out. It's. I don't know if we can swear on this, but if we can't bleep it. But it's batshit insane and I just couldn't help it. I'll say this too. We filmed the whole project and then afterwards, we were at a bar hanging out, and there's just something kind of like gnawing away at the back of my head. And I think it was the idea that it felt kind of cash grabby. I'm like, this is a trick that I don't do. But I just recorded this whole thing. I'm not even passionate about this trick, but I am putting it out there. And something felt wrong about that. I was like, I need something I'm going to be passionate about in this. And if it's not the trick, it needs to be the visual medium, it needs to be the demo, it needs to be something. And so I start talking to Mandy and Sean about it, who are like, you know, they kind of run everything at Penguin. And I was like, well, I have these ideas. I would love to do X, Y and Z, blah. And they were like, oh, yeah, we'll pause the whole project. And they're like, yeah, until we can film all these extra things you want to film, like, we won't release it, so that's fine. And. And that was it. Then I went home to Florida, but there was like, no plan to film anything extra. But they just knew. They're like, we'll just. We'll do it. Like, if you have a vision as an artist, we are going to do that vision. And then that was kind of the end of it. And then out of nowhere, they're like, we're going to Florida, like in April to film some stuff. We will carve out an entire day just for you. Can you get to us and can we do it? And I went, I will start buying. I will start buying the props right now. Let's go to town. So I bought a bunch of stuff, showed up, filmed the whole thing, a day of filming. We went insane. I truly am ecstatic. I'm ecstatic for it to come out. And it's not because I like the trick itself. But it's because I'm like, this video is so me. And so, like, what I had in my head. And that makes me very happy. That, again, Penguin was so willing to be like, yeah, we'll do your vision and we'll just make it happen. And I'm. I'm pumped. It's going to be crazy. [00:36:03] Speaker B: That's awesome. You did have an oil and water routine. Can we talk about that for a second? Like, where that. Yeah, where that came from. It's. It's probably. And this is just me looking at the. You know, I haven't got my hands on it yet, but it seemed like it's like an oil and water that you do not have to work at. [00:36:21] Speaker A: Not at all. I can. Is this a video? Can people see this? This is. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, they could. Yeah. It's going to be video. And it's on Spotify. It'll be right. [00:36:31] Speaker A: See, Right. So you have three black, three red, and you can see it on both sides, you know, separate. But I do shake it. And then they mix without any slides. And again, everyone thinks it's like half and half cards, but, like, it is not. You can fully see everything, but all you have to do is let it settle and then they separate. But that's pow. No slights necessary to do. It's called pow for perfect oil and water. Arrogant and on the nose maybe. But also, I have. I truly haven't seen an oil and water that's that perfect before, so I will say that it is. So. Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker B: I don't think you'd have anyone that would argue because I. I would never consider. Ever consider doing oil and water. I like tricks that do the hard work for me. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Again, going back to earlier, slights are hard. I'm not. I don't do them. Like, I can do. I. I can do them. I just don't. Because. Why? There's better options. Like, I mean, again, I do some slides. I literally had a friend the other day. I've known for years and years and years. He's seen me sort of do magic. But like, we're friends through climbing and not through magic. But one of the days he was over at the house, we're having a drink, and he was like, I've heard you talk about magic a lot. I've seen you do some stuff. He's like, but I've heard you say that you can do all the slights. You just choose not to. I was like. He's like, is it too much to ask if you just sit down and show me some of, like, the slights. And I was like, well, you're not gonna see them, but, yeah, sure. And then, yeah, I just gave him essentially one of, like, OG gambling demos is I went through and just did knuckle busting, sleight of hand, and it was, it actually was really fun. So again, right, I say all these opinions about slights and I don't like them, but then I do them, and then he's like, had the best time watching. And I was like, I had so much fun doing this, too. So. So again, the dichotomy of me is absurd because, you know, I, I, I preach one thing and then I, like, do it and then also do other stuff. So. So, yeah, I won't do slides until I do slides. [00:38:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Magic is all about lying, so. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, right? I'm very good at it. [00:38:48] Speaker B: You're well within your right to change your mind. [00:38:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I've never tried trying to lie, though. It is everything I say, I say with confidence because it is actually how I feel until I start doing slights. Then I'm like, it's pretty fun, though. I do like these. And I mean, I'm, I'm lucky to have Paul Cummins as a mentor. So, like, I, I've got, like, the slide, the side steel nailed down. And. But because of that, I was doing the pass beforehand until he, like, on my sides in my pass and was like, do the side steel. But, like, my paths are still pretty good. My side still is even better. And now I can do so many other things that I learned from random videos and all that jazz. But, but, yeah, but that's not the question. The question was pow. And how we got here. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah. How did we get to pow? [00:39:30] Speaker A: That would be John Michael Hinton, my friend. If you go to johnismyfriend.com that's, that's who he is. But that's why I say my friend. He is my friend. But it also, that's his brand. John Michael Hinton, he's everyone's friend. He wanted an oil and water that he could do on stage that could be visual for a massive crowd. Like, you know, projected, obviously. Like, it's not a thousand people squinting their eyes trying to see the trick projected on the screen, but he wanted it to eliminate anyone in the audience essentially going, well, I bet it was sleight of hand or maybe it was an extra card. He wanted to be able to fairly show one card one by one by one, separate than mixed. And, and we've been friends for years. And so he just called me and was like, you know, I want this trick. I don't know how to do it, but I bet you can do it. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, that's a challenge. I've never done that. I've never thought about oil and waters, but I'll give it a shot and see what I can come up with. And then maybe a month went by and I had nothing. But I had nothing because I didn't. I truly never tried it because I wasn't passionate about it. I didn't care. It was his trick. It, like, wasn't mine. But he just wanted me to create the method for it. And so I was just like, nah, you know, I'll get there when I get there. But he just kept hounding me and kept hounding me, and he's like, eric, you can do this. Like, I know you can come up with this. Like, you have to be able to figure this out. And so then one day he just was like, when are you free? Let's get on FaceTime and let's just talk it out. Let's figure out how to do it. And so he gets me on FaceTime and. And. And then, yeah, we just sat there and kind of worked out different. I say. I say we. And he will not argue on this either. Like, not to, like, boast for myself. John watched me work out a bunch of different methods or potential ways to, like, set it up and do it until I got in one session, which, like, God, saying this also just sounds so arrogant. But the fact that it took me, like, 90 minutes to solve the problem, I was pissed because I was like, that was too long. I hated that. Like, that was way too hard to come up with because, like, no lie, most of this stuff I've released, like, it's been refined over years, and then I release it. But, like, the initial concept of the trick and method comes like that. And then I put it out, like, I'm not a creator for a creator's sake. I don't just sit and be like, I want this trick. I'm going to create this trick, and blah, blah, blah. And so that was the first time that someone said, create this trick and figure it out. And I was like, I hate this. Like, because I. I had to solve a problem that I didn't. I wasn't passionate about, I didn't care about. I was solving it for someone else. But then we got it, and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool, actually. Like, all right, like, it took not even one day of work. And now we have this. And it again, I refined it later. Like, the version that John initially did. And you can see it on his Instagram. [00:42:38] Speaker B: I did. I did. I did actually look it up. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Oh, really? So his original version on Instagram is. He might have actually. I don't know if you saw the original. He might have deleted it by now. [00:42:48] Speaker B: I saw the one that was on you on the preview on Penguin for. [00:42:53] Speaker A: Oh, no. So, yeah, so his original. He just put a random Instagram post out just to mess with magicians, but it wasn't that good. So, like, laymen were like, okay, but magicians. It was good enough that magicians were like, wait a minute. That actually, like, something is wrong. Like, that looked. That did look too good. But there we saw. We saw some movement. We saw. And I hadn't figured out how to make it as pure as you just saw it. Like, some stuff had to be moved to make it work, but barely. And then it would, like, it still would then unshuffle or mix with barely any movement. And so it was enough to fool magicians, but it was not enough for layman to, like, care, because they were like, yeah, you're just moving cards. That's fine. I guess we might have just missed something. And so I kind of. Now I cared right now. I was like, okay, well, now I've got this thing. Now I have to make it perfect. I have to keep working on it. And I put it aside, didn't touch it for about a week because I just, again, was mad because I just. It was a problem I couldn't totally solve yet. And instead of, like, working at it, I was just, like, walking away. And then one day, I was following my friend. Details that don't matter, but I was following my friend to drop their car off to get an oil change, picked him up, and literally on the drive home, I was like, oh, my God, I got it. I got home in the original gimmick I had, I didn't alter a thing. I just kind of changed the handling a little, and it worked. And now we're talking about Eric Tate as well. Earlier, I FaceTimed Eric Tate instantly said, hey, check this out. And I showed him, and he was like, I don't have any idea what you just did. Like, how is that possible? And I was like, nice. And then that was. That was. Pal. [00:44:35] Speaker B: Are you. Is it more. Is. Is it more satisfying when you trick a magician more than when you trick a layman or. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Shockingly, no. So, like, some of the material I released can, like, fool magicians, sure, but that's never my goal. My goal is actually just to make entertaining magic for layman. So one of my releases, the Expression Test, is to me like the best thing I've put out. I am obsessed with that trick on an insane level. I think it's so good. But like magicians, if they see it, it's not hard to deconstruct how I'm doing it. If you know enough card magic, really, if you know enough basic skills in card magic, you go, okay, I get how this works, but it's a really entertaining routine with like such a phenomenal ending that I don't really care. So I put it out. It didn't sell well. It didn't do well at all, to be honest. But I have had more magicians in the past year come up to me and tell me that they're doing expression tests now and how much they love it and how it's just killing audiences and all that. I'm like, that's good enough for me. Like, I didn't fool magicians with that trick. But magicians are entertaining audiences with that trick and that's. That's all I care about. It's a great trick. It's so good. [00:45:54] Speaker B: And that one's on Penguin. You can. [00:45:56] Speaker A: It's not Penguin. It's like $3 or $4 or something. That's a. It's totally self produced instant download, which requires no gimmicks, no nothing. It's a. So again, having Paul Cummings as a mentor. Paul Cummins was known for fazdu, which is stands for from a shuffled deck in use. So like, I've released a lot of gimmick material. I do, I do most of it, but the reality is the material I really do is fast do material. And it's just if you give me a fully shuffled deck of cards, I can still do an hour set, no problem. And so Expression Test is just one of my favorite fast do tricks. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Nice. I never even got a chance to ask, so you are at 16 years old creating magic tricks. But how did you get from. How did you get to that where you're making magic tricks? What's like your. Let's start. What's your earliest memory of magic? [00:46:51] Speaker A: Earliest was very young. So I grew up very religious in the church and my family had a missionary over at the house as like a fundraiser for him. I think I was like 5. So my details are very hazy. But he was a magician as well as a missionary. His name's Force Hendricks. I'm friends with him to this day. He is, there's no doubt in my mind, he is the first experience I ever had with magic. I, I, I also, I'm friends with him also because my literal best friend from childhood married his daughter and so any. And my best friend lives 10 minutes from my house. So when he's in town, I'm like, I'll go hang out with Forrest. That's fine. Like, and we'll, we'll go off and, you know, get a glass of wine and a cigar and hang out and yeah, he's great. So he, he showed me my first magic, but he didn't show me right. He was showing everyone. I just was there. I can, like, describe some of the tricks I saw, except I know that I would describe them all incorrectly because as a five year old, I was witnessing like, witchcraft and I was like, this is all impossible stuff. And now as I'm older, I'm like, I don't think I saw that correctly. Like, and now, like, knowing, forced, even better. Now as an adult, I'm like, oh, yeah, Forrest wasn't doing that kind of magic that I thought he was doing. It's just how you view magic as a kid. And then it wasn't until I was eight that I saw a magician in Sea World was doing tableside magic and he came up to us and like, at 8, you know, I was a pretty arrogant punk of a kid and. Right. You could give me a thing and I could tear it apart and put it back together. And it was just fun for me to, like, do that and learn things. And so a magician did magic for me and I was like, oh, I have no way I was doing this. Like, I don't like this. I am used to understanding things at a young age. That was like, I must have been an awful kid to be around. Like, what a nightmare personality that was. But then it bothered him. The second I saw him walk to the corner to reset tricks and take a breather, probably from dealing with kids like me. I just beelined him because my dad had two other kids to deal with. And so I was like, I'm off on my own. I'm going to talk to this guy. And I just was bothering him. And he's, he was a brilliant person and knew how to deal with me. And he took a piece of paper out and wrote down two books and handed it to me and said, give this to your dad. Tell him to buy you these books and I'll teach you how I Did everything. And I went, perfect, see you later, dude. And I just dipped because I was like, that's all I needed. I needed the answer. I got the answer. I'm out of here. And the books were Mark Wilson's Cyclopedia Magic and the Royal Road to Card Magic. Both could be bought at a Barnes and Noble. I got both those books and one, it didn't teach me anything that that guy did at all. Not even a little bit. Looking back now, I'm like, none of that was. Whatever he did was. None of that was in the book. He did sponge rabbits, Hot rod, and Three Card Monty with metal cards, which is brilliant. Metal tented cards. Genius, right? Like, to this day I think about that, I'm like, that guy's the smartest dude on the planet doing tableside magic with metal cards that are like, tinking and like making noise and hitting and it's just, how could you do slights with metal, right? And it's, it's the same slides, but your brain just can't comprehend how it's possible. I truly, when I saw it, I was like, oh, well, the object I'm looking for was a. It was a dolphin because it was at SeaWorld. It's like, well, that's magnetic. And he's able to slide it off and put it somewhere else and slide out and put it. And then, you know, years later, I learned Three Card Mondi and I'm like, oh, he just decided, got it. Like, I, I was the idiot thinking all these methods and turns out it, he just was good at his job. [00:50:40] Speaker B: I can't wait for your next. I can't wait for your next release. Metal Three Card Monty. [00:50:45] Speaker A: It's, it's honestly to the point that, like, I need to find out who this guy was and just be like, can we put this out? Because, like, this is really good and it needs to be out there. And then I'm also saying it. I hope I'm not tipping Insider Secret for him, but it's not a product. If you want to do it, you have to make it yourself, which you should. I'm really into that. But yeah, so my dad then bought me those two tricks or those two books. And no lie, I read them for years. I would just be in my room alone, kind of like flicking through them, and they just didn't make a lick of sense to me because I was young and like, Royal Road to Card Magic is a difficult, like, book to read at that age. Even at this age, there's some stuff you read And I'm at this day, I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, so it wasn't until I was like 13, I think that I actually tried a trick. I was fascinated with magic and I loved it, but I wasn't doing it. And, and then when I did finally do it, I started with coins because that, the images made sense to me. You know, a French drop, you hold the coin, your hand comes in, it falls. And palming made sense, coins made sense, cards didn't make sense yet, but I did just a basic French drop. And instead of getting what every kid gets, so they get a magic kit, the parents going, oh, yeah, you did a trick. That was cute. I just had a stunned mom and sister going, I don't understand. I don't know how you did that. Like, it doesn't make any sense. And I was like, that's a cool feeling. I actually really like this feeling. Like, this is awesome. And I was hooked ever since. And then, and then at some point, I don't know what age I was, but at some point, Royal Road to Card Magic just clicked and I went, I get it, I get what they're saying. I understand what these moves are. And. And then I just started doing card magic like crazy. And then it was, it was over from there. [00:52:34] Speaker B: How did you, did you happen to go to law school by any chance? [00:52:40] Speaker A: I did not, but I worked at a law firm for. [00:52:43] Speaker B: Okay, that's okay. Yeah, I was, I was like, it said somewhere laws. I was like, is he a lawyer? [00:52:49] Speaker A: No, no, no. Yeah, I just worked at a law firm for quite a while. I will say this, the trick the, the company had said, I'm not going to name because I made things right by me. When they made 700 faulty poker test units, I was at that law firm and they sent them a letter that being like, you know, we are going to take legal action unless you take this, make this right for our clients. And you know, the client being just their young employee. And then they made it right very quickly. They did not want the lawsuit and they made it right. And so I'll never work with you all again. But, you know, he did pay me back some money, so that was cool. [00:53:20] Speaker B: Good. Okay. Yeah. The advantages to working at a law firm. [00:53:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it was, it was, it was a mind numbing job, but also it paid well. It was very flexible with my schedule. I could go to magic conferences whenever I wanted. So I don't, I never will regret working there. It was a good time. I mean, it got to the point where, like, I literally, I was, like, in the cubicles. And by the time I left, I, like, I had my own office where, like, no lie, I was sitting there watching the office or Parks and Rec on repeat all day while doing the, like, the smallest tasks. Like, a lawyer would come and ask me to, like, digitize these word documents into PDFs, and he was like, I'm doing. There's like a thousand of them. And, like, it's gonna take me five days to do it all. Like, you need to do it. And I'm like, y'all just get a program that can batch process this in five seconds. They don't know that. So I would wait three days. I'd watch TV for three days, and then I would deliver them, and they'd be like, that. You did it so fast. That was amazing. Yay, Eric. I'm like, yes. I'm, like, beating expectations while not working. And then it turns out for the way my brain works, I'm like, this is the most boring thing ever. Like, I need to be challenged. I actually can't do this. Like, this is a nightmare. So I quit. [00:54:35] Speaker B: When did you go into full time magic? Are you full time? [00:54:38] Speaker A: I'm not full time. Actually, I was, and then I quit. I quit and then worked at the law firm. Actually, I was full time at, like, 19, and it made me hate Magic. And. But I was again, I was a very young person who hadn't developed enough magic for myself. And so I, like, I'm transitioning back to seeing effing get back into full time. That is kind of the goal now because I'm like, I. I am back to. I'm really passionate about this. I have more gigs booked this month than I've had in the past two years combined. Just in January coming, like, I'm. I'm making more money in January at Magic than, like, I ever have. And it's mind blowing to me. And also, I didn't even try. I actually don't know how that happened. There's not a. There's no secret. I didn't put anything out there. I just started getting booked and I was like, this is weird. I guess I'll capitalize on this. Turns out I'm gonna. I'm gonna go back to potentially full time magic, so. But, yeah, I don't. I don't know. I did it for a bit. It made me upset and it made me sad, and it made me not, like, I didn't study it anymore. I wasn't working on it anymore. I was Just doing magic and then going home and doing magic and then going home and I'm like, I don't like this. It makes me. And I want, I want to always love magic. And so I just quit. And then, and then got the job with a law firm because I had a friend that worked there who was like, you should apply. We'll get you that. I'll make sure you get hired. And he did. And then I worked with my best friend and that was awesome, actually. I had, I had a lot of fun the first two years there. And then he quit and then it was just me and I was like, this kind of sucks now, but okay. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I understand that feeling. [00:56:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:16] Speaker B: You said you were. We could talk about Penn and Teller. [00:56:19] Speaker A: We could talk about it. I have ideas, but I just haven't done it, you know? [00:56:23] Speaker B: Okay, so you, you have some, you have some thoughts? Because from what, from what I've seen, it doesn't seem like it'd be much of a stretch for you to come up with a real mind blowing trick for them. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Yeah, so I, I have ideas. So I don't know if you're familiar with Brent Braun, who's another magician out there. Yeah. Yes. [00:56:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I, I've, I've come across him. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah, he, he, I mean, he's, he's arguably the best consultant in the world at this moment. Actually. [00:56:56] Speaker B: I, I, I just realized I did, I saw him at a, I saw him at a penguin. Was it penguin. I saw him at a, at a convention. No. Yeah, it was a penguin. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Was it like the Penguin Max conventions back in the day? [00:57:10] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:57:11] Speaker A: He was all of those. Yeah, yeah, he was at all of those. That was. Dude, listen to this story. [00:57:15] Speaker B: So good. [00:57:16] Speaker A: So before I get into Penn and tell it, this is just a funny story about Brent and it messed with my head. I have a. Yeah, I could do a whole. Do it just stories of these people that, like, are so lovely but initially messed with me that I'm like, are these nice people? What's happening? And then we can always do a part two. [00:57:32] Speaker B: We can always do a part two. There's no God. [00:57:34] Speaker A: I could talk for hours. I'm such a. Yeah. Vain person. I could hear myself speak. But so, so I, they come to Jacksonville. So this is, this is actually the IBM conference in 2012. Maybe it was in Jacksonville, which is really cool. I was, it was in my town. And I'm like, this is awesome. I have to travel for this. I love this. The girl I was dating at the Time. I'm like, we'll sneak you in. And you can kind of see the world I'm in. And you can understand, like, why I'm, like, obsessed with this stuff, because it just. Hanging out with magicians is just fun. Like it is when we're not doing magic. It's just fun. Like, they're all interesting, weird, strange, fun, great people to be around. And they're almost always nice. Like, so rare is someone actually a dick that you're like, I don't want to be around you. So we go. I get into the dealer room. We're kind of, like, looking around, and they're like, a dealer room is just, you know, the greatest place to be at a magic conference. At least to me, it was that. Now it's the bar. Whatever the closest bar is, that's where I want to be. But I see the penguin booth. This is 2012 poker test 2.0 just came out. It's a hit. I know that they have, like, 50 copies on their table. And I'm like, I'm about to look awesome in front of my girlfriend. Let's go to the penguin booth. And as I, like, go to point it out, Brent Braun's behind the penguin booth. We lock eyes, and I. And I'm like, telling her. I'm like, we have to go to this booth. We're gonna see my trick, and Brent will, like, probably. Probably demo it for us. And then we look at Brent, and he just picks up the poker test and then just starts destroying the DVD in front of me. And I'm also across the. I'm not at the table. I'm, like, easily 30ft away. There's enough distance. I just think it's just a weird moment, and he just obliterates it. And then I don't approach the booth because I'm like, I don't know how to handle that moment. That was weird. And then I didn't talk to Brent for about a year, if not more, and then I brought that story up to Brent, and he just started dying laughing, and he was like, I remember that. He's like, I just thought it'd be funny. I'm like, well, it is now. But I was young, and it was a weird moment for me. But now looking back, and I'm like, I would do the same thing, dude. That's hilarious. Like, that's actually hysterical. It just. My feeble mind couldn't. I was just like, why would he do that? And then, like, even asked him. He's like, yeah, I. Every time I go to these conferences. I just open up a new gimmick so it's fresh. He's like, and that's just the one. I opened. Like, I didn't need the DVD anymore. It was gonna get thrown away. He's like, I didn't destroy a product that was gonna be sold. I just destroyed the thing that was gonna go into the trash. And I thought it'd be funny to do it in front of you. He's like, I literally saw you. I knew I had just opened one up so I could demo it. Cause he was demoing it and he was like, this will be funny. And he just did it. And I was like, what on earth was that? It was a wild moment. [01:00:29] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect. [01:00:31] Speaker A: Yeah. You asked me a question earlier. I forgot it already. I just told that story about Brett. Oh, fool. That's what it was. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't want to know if you're gonna go. So now you. If you were going to do a trick, you've got a. You know, you. You were going up against two of the sharpest minds who know the most history, who. I mean, they literally work with Johnny Thompson. [01:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:53] Speaker B: I mean, so it's like, how. How would you go about creating for somebody that you basically have to create something that's completely new? I mean, or how do you go about that? [01:01:03] Speaker A: So I wouldn't go with the approach to fooling them. I would hope. Right. That's the goal. Right? You hope you do fool them. [01:01:11] Speaker B: Well, is that the goal? I mean, I. I feel like the goal is that they're just showcasing magicians, good magic. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Right. So that's my goal would be be as entertaining as possible on stage and. And also be me. Be as as much of me as possible. Because, like, I know some people have gone on there, and then when I see them up there, I'm like, that's not you. What are you doing? Like, that's some weird scripted stuff, and it just feels sterile and. And stuff. But then I have, like, other friends. Like. Like, again, John Hinton's been on Fool Us, and, like, that's just. He's so inherently himself on stage, too. And which I am blown away by because you put. Put me on stage. That's also my biggest fear, too. You put me on stage knowing a million people are going to see this. I might clam up and try and then be, like, corporate professional and not just be me and be, like, a zany, weird dude. So that's like. That is a fear of mine that if I go do it I need to make sure I do it the way I want to do it and not the way I think Pen and Teller want me to do it. If that makes sense. [01:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it makes sense. [01:02:09] Speaker A: And. And then, yeah, I don't want to. I don't. I want to fool him, but I don't want that to be the thing. I don't want to be like, that's my be all. End all is fooling Penn and Teller. I just want to do good magic. But I think, I truly think I have. I have an idea for PAL with oil and water. I'll talk about on here, because they're probably. No offense to you, your podcast is great, but they're probably not going to listen to this. They will never. [01:02:36] Speaker B: They will never hear this. Don't worry. [01:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So I'll say it here and if anyone listens to it and then they see me do it, they'll be like, wow, we saw, like, the creation of it. So now I work in the print industry, actually. I do large scale printing for a lot for magicians, actually. I do giant backdrops, stage settings, things like that, big banners, posters, all that jazz. But because of that, I have access to crazy things for printing. And I want to print a giant, like, phone on probably foam core or maybe like gator board. So it'd be pretty sturdy. And then, you know, cut the inside out. So it's me, but have like TikTok, like kind of be faded into it. And I want to talk about the pandemic. We're past it now, but talk about doing magic virtually and how I had to do magic through a screen. So then I bring that phone out. So, like, this is how I'm comfortable doing magic. I'm not comfortable doing magic for real people. It's fake. That's the script. But I, you know, I got. I need to do it with a. With a barrier. I need to have the screen set up. And then I do pow. And like, again, here's the method. I don't really care of how I'm gonna fool them. So I'll do pow with my cards, but then I'll say, but I'm. But the pandemic's over. I'm with real people right now. We have to get rid of this, this barrier. And I'll take the cards put in my hand, and when I grab the screen, I have a thing that's gonna. I'll let the cards slot into, and then I'll take ungimmicked cards out as I put the barrier and Then I'll crawl the host over. I think her name's Brooke. And then I have. I have another method with just the real cards to do, like, some frustration counts to. Then do it in her hand to make it feel like it's still working her hand. And the beauty of POW is once they see how. How pure it can look, they're not going to question ungimmicked cards with a couple slights, because they're already conditioned to being like, oh, well, this just, like, it can look literally flawless. Now it's in my hand. Who cares? So I'm gonna condition the audience for how the trick should look. Then I'm gonna do it in her hand. And then before she gives me the cards back, I'm gonna say, no, I don't want to touch them. You actually can give those to Pen and Teller. And then, you know, that's my act. I think that could fool them. And I also think it'd be entertaining in the same way. [01:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that. That. That's solid. And don't worry, they will never see this podcast, ever. [01:05:02] Speaker A: I have so many other hobbies that keep me kind of, like, grounded, and magic is number one. But I have a million other things that I, like, love to study, love to do, love to research, because I. If I just research one thing, I'll lose my mind. [01:05:14] Speaker B: Name some of those. Some of those hobbies. [01:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So dentistry would be number one. I think we might share that. I'm kidding. Uh, I was gonna. [01:05:23] Speaker B: I was gonna go. I doubt that very much. [01:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah, Joking. No. So photography, I'm, like, obsessed with it. Like, I mean, I'm obsessed with any visual medium, and, like, magic is that as well. So I love photography. Before I was a magician, I truly wanted to be a movie maker, and I made a handful of short films back in the day. It was super fun. I still love it to the this day. So, like, cinematography, directing, all of that jazz. My. My original copies of Star wars on VHS had. It was the. The. The special edition before the special edition, and it had these interviews with George Lucas. And so I always was like, I want to be him. Like, he created this. I want that. I love that. And then I realized later that he only directed one of them. And then it was Urban Kirchner. Richard Marquin Markand directed the next two, and he was just a producer and all that. And then I was like, well, I don't want to be a director. I want to be your producer. Now I have visions, I have ideas, but I need. I want other people to execute them. Because fair, as artistic as I am, there's always someone better than me at this stuff. And so then I like got super into like that concept and then I'm still into it. I still love movies. I have the AMC A list pass and I'm at the movie theater once a week, if not twice a week. I just will see anything that comes out because I want to. I want to know. Rock climbing, not a visual medium, but it involves my hands being used and again, magic. I just like anything in that regard. I like motorcycles a lot. I have currently have one. I used to have three. I sold off two. I had a 1968 Honda though, that I rebuilt from the ground up. That was really fun. And I like building stuff. This is, I mean for the visual. If people see it, I'll show it off right here. This is the nicest close up pad anyone on the planet will ever see. [01:07:23] Speaker B: Wow. [01:07:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I used to make and sell these, but I sold them for like $300 so no one bought them. So in the end I just gave a bunch away to my friends. But this is the only one I do with a live edge and that's me. And my uncle did it again. I like, I'm a producer, right? So I bring in other people who are good at things and to create my vision. My uncle's one of the best woodworkers on the planet. There's no question about that. He's insane. Also, if anyone's listening this to describe it, this is a solid wood oak with a live edge with a felt green inlay of one of the most plush close up pads you'll ever see in your life. And it is insane. If you can visually see it, you can tell that it's nice. But. And so I did woodworking for a while and it was really fun. And then my uncle is just a straight genius with wood. And so, so I was able to come in and work with him like he did. He did the work. But I was able to not like be an idiot and be like, okay, well no, just try it this way. Let's do it this. And then I have a leather close up paddle that I made. I made like six of those and gave those out. Those will come out. That will be a product at some point. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Oh, perfect. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that'll be Casey's pad. Oh, dude. I have this other one. Oh no, that's. So here's the. So I have the, the leather close up pads I'm working on. I'm going to make a A slew of those that be called the Casey's pad. I have a whole line of Casey stuff at the Casey's playing cards I just put out as well. Oh, I say just put out. This is last year, but we're doing a second printing soon. [01:08:54] Speaker B: Oh yeah, you can get those on your website. [01:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the false Casey's playing cards come out next month. We just finished the Kickstarter with those. That's with Ryan's false anchors deck. Then here's the Casey's card clips. So I make custom card clips now and I have a ton of them with like the little flamingo on the side there, which is my whole brand. But it's made out of like aluminum, like an aircraft grade aluminum them. So it's like nice. Legitimately. This weighs nothing. And as a climber, not to brag, I have strong forearms and like I cannot get them to touch. Like it. [01:09:32] Speaker B: That's impressive. [01:09:33] Speaker A: It is an aggressively strong card clip. I was always obsessed with Joe Porper's card clips back in the day. Unfortunately he passed and they kept saying they're going to make more and they'll bring them back. And they, they just didn't. And I, I loved card clips. I live in Florida. My cards warp all the time from humidity and card clips truly, it's not a sales pitch. They truly extend the life of a playing card. And I then realized, well, I'm never gonna be able to get a custom Porper card clip with a flamingo like I've always wanted. I'm gonna have to make them myself. So then we started working on the designing of it and getting it perfect. And then they were like, well, we're not gonna just like make you one. You literally have to order, order a hundred of these from us. Now that you know what aluminum you want and you know the designing, you know your specifications, you need 100 now. And so I was like, well, I want this. Too bad to not do this. So I have a hundred of these. I don't know when they'll go on sale because it, the goal was never to put them on sale. It just was to me have them. And now I have them. And I'm like, all right, well so cases, playing cards, case Casey's card clips. Casey's pads will come out. Then I have Casey spray coming out, which is my version of rough and smooth spray. And then Casey stick is coming out, which is my version of a roughing stick. So that hopefully will all be this year. [01:10:53] Speaker B: How have you changed the formula to. [01:10:55] Speaker A: Improve it here's the beauty. I haven't. And so I worked at Daytona Magic for a while, and I felt slimy about the fact that they would take a product and then put a new label on it and call it another thing, and then never tell anyone. So when you buy mine, I'm gonna sell the product, and what you're really buying is the instructions, and it's gonna be, how do you use this product? How do you do it? And I'm just gonna tell you what it is. You go buy today's hardware. I don't care. Like, I'm actually not trying to make Casey spray a thing. I'm trying to encourage people, again, to just make their own gimmicks. I want people to be encouraged to do that. I want them to have the knowledge to do that. But I also want them to know that so much of this stuff can just be bought at Ace Hardware, at Lowe's, at Home Depot. Like, and it can all be done for so much cheaper. And whereas, like, you know, science friction is $99 for a cam. And, yes, you get an incredible instructional DVD, but if that can runs out, you're spending $99 again. And the reality is you're buying the instructions. Like, that's actually what should cost the most. So I'm gonna sell mine for, like, 25, maybe 30 bucks, and I'm gonna teach you how to make poker test with it. I'll teach you probably how to make pow with it and then some other, like, random things I'm working on. And then I'm gonna say, here's the product. Here's where you buy it. This is the one you want. Like, don't. Like, don't buy Casey spray again. Because I'm just. I'm doing the thing that magic shops do. I'm reskinning it. Like, but I'm gonna reskin it in a goofy way that just makes me happy. And, like, it's not actually to. It's not to make an insane profit and be like, ah, you have to buy this for me. It's. It's just to educate people. [01:12:48] Speaker B: Wow, that's. That's actually a really, really cool service for magicians. [01:12:53] Speaker A: I thank you. It's. It's. It's so, like. I don't know. I just think if. Again, right. Going back to it, if just one kid gets it, though, and then it inspires them to start creating their own material that I'm like, that was worth it. Sweet. I'm glad I did that thing. Like, I just want to See, I just want to see magic advance past me. That's all I care about. Not that it hasn't. It already has. Like, magic is so good right now and, like, it's incredible, but I just want to be. I want to be involved in making it even better. Yep. [01:13:22] Speaker B: What's. What's next for Eric Casey? What are we. What are we up to next? [01:13:27] Speaker A: So in March, I don't know when this releases. In March, I will be at the Mystify Magic Festival in Las Vegas. And that is the first women run, women only magic conference. Not women only men can go. Any can be attendees. But anyone on stage performing is. Is a woman and super dope. I'm really happy to be involved in that. I did all their branding. I did the Mystify playing cards for them. And I have just been kind of like a consultant on the whole project, which has been very fun to kind of like, help, but also to sit back and just kind of see what Leah. Leah Orleans. And if you know Danny Orleans in Chicago, it's. It's Danny's daughter. Leah is running the whole thing. [01:14:08] Speaker B: Oh, I didn't know who that. I love. I love Danny. [01:14:11] Speaker A: He's. Yeah. [01:14:12] Speaker B: The best kids show. [01:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:13] Speaker B: Magician I've ever seen. [01:14:15] Speaker A: Danny's a legend. And so. And so Leah is. Is kind of spearheading this whole project. And so it's been fun to be involved and just kind of like, see where her head goes. Because she's not even like, she grew up in magic, obviously. Right. Danny's her dad. And you can't not be involved in magic when that's your dad. And then, I mean, her mom is Jan as well, and she's like one of the MCs at the Chicago Magic Lounge. So, like, she's inundated with magic. She is very much, though, a performer and she understands performance on an insane level. And so it's been really, really cool to kind of see where her head goes. Of like, I'd like to see a magic convention look like this because it's so much more performance based. And I want these people to be highlighted. I want this to happen. And, and so. And like, I consult here and there and be like, well, you know, as someone who's been to more magic conferences than I can count at this point, which I wish was a joke, but it's not. I just love them. Then I'll be like, okay, well, this won't work. Like, this has been done and it doesn't work because X, Y and Z. So either find a Different way to do it or don't do it. So it's been fun to be able to have kind of a voice, but more so to just see where she's taking the project. And so I, I get to be involved, but I'm not, you know, center stage as I should not be, because this is not about men and magic. And so I'll be there in March. Cannot wait. I think there's only like 15 registrations left, so. Wow. Yeah. So it will, it truly will sell out very soon. And I'm jazzed about that. In August, I'll be at Magic Live. There's no pre registration, hasn't opened up yet, but I'll be the first to register. Um, and then like, what's next for me? I don't know. Just. I don't know. I have another trick coming out. Uh. Oh my God, I have my book. I forgot. Casey's Notes is coming out. That book. [01:16:10] Speaker B: It's gonna tell us all about it. [01:16:11] Speaker A: It's gonna be absurd. It's. I mean, I've been working on it for. I've been working on it for like six years. And then like the biggest thing I couldn't crack is like textbook magic. Like how to write magic like a textbook. You have to be able to learn it and has to make sense. And I'm like, this is so hard for me. I've read a million books, but I don't know how to write like this. And then turns out there's magicians who just do that, who write like that. You show them your tricks and then they write it up for you. And I was like, well, that kind of cracked the code. It's like, I'm not even going to sugarcoat it. I didn't write half my book. Mike Helmer did up in. I'm pretty sure in Canada. I could be wrong, but. But yeah, Mike Helmer, incredible author, has been so much fun to work with. So he wrote a lot of my book and he was able to truly, truly capture my voice, which I'm obsessed with because he is an insane writer and writes like with my level of insanity as well. And so the book is a riot just to read. And so I'm working on the photography now. And because I'm me, right, I'm like trying to shoot medium format photography, but I want to do 35 millimeter film inside a medium format camera. So I get this like full exposure on this and then scan it into the book because I can't help it. That's just kind of like What I love. So the goal is to have it a hundred percent done by may, have copies in hand by June, like sample copies. Have those copies in magician's hands in August at Magic Live to get some quotes and then to release in my birthday in November. November. So that's the hope. [01:17:47] Speaker B: I'm gonna need to. I'm gonna need to buy the special edition signed copy. So make sure you have those. [01:17:53] Speaker A: It will exist and it will come with probably some wild. Again, because I'm me. It's not going to come with like just a signed thing. I'm sure I'm gonna throw something else in there. That's just weird. And I. [01:18:05] Speaker B: Why don't you just, like, rough half the pages, so. [01:18:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:18:08] Speaker B: You don't even realize you're getting like, double the book. [01:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was talking to my. My girlfriend about it, so. So Sebastian, who I've mentioned a couple times, has a book called Shaken Not Stirred. He has the best shake change on the face of the earth. There's no quite. He's taught me a million times and I still can't do it like him. He's taught a million people and no one can do it like him. In it. I get right. The shake change is just the shake change. But not until he does it. And then you're like, oh, the shake change is real magic. When Sebastian does it to the point that like, literally, Ossie Wind and John Lovick, I've seen them film him in text the videos to David Blaine to say, why aren't you doing it like this? Like, that's how good Sebastian shake changes. So his Shaken Not Stirred book teaches his handling of the shake change, which. Good luck learning it. No one can do it the way he does it. Still fun to, like, read it and go, okay, sure, I can't do it. But he wants. God, I hope he doesn't get mad at me for talking about this. I don't think he will. But in between each chapter, he wants to put, like, his favorite cocktails because he's also a bartender. I think that's brilliant. I love that idea. [01:19:14] Speaker B: And that's amazing. [01:19:15] Speaker A: Shaken Not Stirred for a book that is primarily about the shake change and his other magic. I'm like, that's awesome. I also love cooking and love baking. And so I was like, I should put some of my recipes in my book. And my girlfriend was like, that's. Don't do that. That's actually insane. Like, you're. Because, like, it's already gonna have stories, like personal stories written by Me, weird photography. Like, I'm gonna. There's just. I have another magician, James Mullenkamp, who wrote some poems for me that'll be in it with pictures of me that are going to be scantily clad photos of me with the poetry that she was like, if you just start putting recipes, too, like, that's. I love it. [01:19:55] Speaker B: I like it. [01:19:56] Speaker A: It's insane. But also I do get it. Like, it's a hat on a hat kind of thing that, like, you're going way too far. Far. And maybe I should just hit absurdity only in magic and not start talking about my. My best chocolate chip cookie recipe on the planet, which I think is very good, but I probably shouldn't put that in the book. A part of me really wants to, though. And how I smoke my wings. I think I'm really good at that, too. [01:20:18] Speaker B: So I. I think you. I definitely love smoked wings. I have no problem with, you know, what sauces in general. Any sauce you want to put in there, I will try. [01:20:27] Speaker A: So I just. And again, right. Talking about hobbies, I love cooking. I'm obsessed with cooking cookies. Like, one of my favorite things to do. And so it's like, I'll just throw that in the book. And it's like, well, then next, what do I teach how I shoot film photography to throw that in the book, then do that. I'm like, all right, I should probably scale it back. Like, corner. But yeah, so that book hopefully will come out. And then I'm. I have two other things that I can't talk about yet. Maybe part two. I'll have confirmations from the other magicians who will hopefully give me the thumbs up to say yes, but. But I'm working with a handful of other magicians on other projects just as like either a consultant, as a producer or something. And. But yeah, none of that is confirmed, so I'm not going to talk about it yet because also just be embarrassing, right. If I talk about it. Never gets excited, it doesn't happen, doesn't work. Right. Then it looks like an idiot. So I'm very hopeful and knowing me, half of it will happen. So I'm happy knowing that some of it is going to happen. [01:21:30] Speaker B: Perfect. [01:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:32] Speaker B: Well, I want to. So. All right, Eric Casey, thank you so much for being on our podcast with us. Thank you so much. I learned a ton. You're hilarious. We'll be seeing a lot of you, I'm sure. [01:21:47] Speaker A: I hope. Just. [01:21:49] Speaker B: Just go to any magic convention and say hi to Eric Casey, because he will be there. [01:21:54] Speaker A: That's. That's decently accurate. Yeah. [01:21:59] Speaker B: Take it easy. [01:22:01] Speaker A: Right on, man. Thanks for having me. [01:22:18] Speaker B: What is the Magician's Workshop? It is a place where we celebrate the sense of wonder and enjoyment from the art of magic. Magic is for everyone, from spectators to hobbyists, to trick collectors, inventors and professional entertainers, all the way to kids practicing their card shuffles after their homework. Whatever your level of interest, there is a place for you in this community. When you start to explore the world of magicians, you'll find an inclusive place where everybody is welcome. Magicians are among the most kind and giving people that I've ever had the chance to meet. So please consider supporting the podcast on our journey to bring you stories and interviews from the world of magic. 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